Will AC continue to ignore YYC?
#16
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YYC, Canada
Programs: AC 35k
Posts: 1,883
Not quite - Greater Vancouver is 2.4 million, and Greater Calgary is about 1.4 million (city proper is 1.25 million). But the whole point of this post is that as a hub, you route traffic through. There is absolutely no way YVR has demand for all the routes it serves; AC is deliberately routing Pacific traffic through it.
#17
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: TK *G
Posts: 3,055
I am sure AC does not simply "try" a route. All routes are based on demand, logistic, government regulation, etc. I am sure the demand for YVR-MEL is greater than YYC-MEL, and there are more connecting flights from YVR, not to mention that in case of IRROPS YVR has more resources to handle it.
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YYC, Canada
Programs: AC 35k
Posts: 1,883
I am sure AC does not simply "try" a route. All routes are based on demand, logistic, government regulation, etc. I am sure the demand for YVR-MEL is greater than YYC-MEL, and there are more connecting flights from YVR, not to mention that in case of IRROPS YVR has more resources to handle it.
#19
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: YVR
Programs: UA Premier Platinum
Posts: 3,756
I don't think this is about YVR-originating demand - YVR is simply better positioned geographically as a connecting hub for TPAC flights for passengers from the western USA, which has many times more people than either the Vancouver or Calgary metro areas.
#20
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
I agree. Plus the last thing I want is connecting flight via YYC. Westjet maybe increasing their Alta flights because they have no other markets to put their aircraft into.
#21
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
Does AC even have aircraft to cover the Caribbean from YVR other than their wide bodies? This may change once the 737 start showing up in their fleet.
#22
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE100*1MM; Spire Ambassador
Posts: 1,339
It's mostly the combination of many factors....to say YVR is better geographically positioned to the western part of the United States is not supported by the facts that there are not a lot more western states routes from YVR than YYC, probably 2-3 more routes. But there are a total of 14 US destinations from YVR while YYC had only 8. And many of those YVR to the US routes are heading to the eastern States. So you could argue that if you add more US routes from YYC, then YYC is equally well positioned, just like YVR.
I would tend to believe that most fundamental reason that AC management is not adding any new route to YYC is still the downturn of the oil industry and its impact to the traffic; the traffic volume from 2014 to 2015 was down significantly, while all other three hub airports, YYZ, YVR, YUL, have maintained 5-6% annual growth rates since 2014, the YYC annual growth rate is down at 1%?
Meanwhile you can not treat YYC as a through-traffic city. In YVR case, it's still a popular leisure destination with more attractive tourism and even residential passengers, Calgary is primarily a work-only destination, with seasonal tourism.
With the oil industry on the slow recovery, debatable if years down the road, it is hard to see the AC management add any new route to YYC in the foreseeable future. I would not bet anything in this year for sure. Any addition of international routes, like MEX or PEK, will be many years away.
I would tend to believe that most fundamental reason that AC management is not adding any new route to YYC is still the downturn of the oil industry and its impact to the traffic; the traffic volume from 2014 to 2015 was down significantly, while all other three hub airports, YYZ, YVR, YUL, have maintained 5-6% annual growth rates since 2014, the YYC annual growth rate is down at 1%?
Meanwhile you can not treat YYC as a through-traffic city. In YVR case, it's still a popular leisure destination with more attractive tourism and even residential passengers, Calgary is primarily a work-only destination, with seasonal tourism.
With the oil industry on the slow recovery, debatable if years down the road, it is hard to see the AC management add any new route to YYC in the foreseeable future. I would not bet anything in this year for sure. Any addition of international routes, like MEX or PEK, will be many years away.
#23
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: YVR
Programs: UA Premier Platinum
Posts: 3,756
It's mostly the combination of many factors....to say YVR is better geographically positioned to the western part of the United States is not supported by the facts that there are not a lot more western states routes from YVR than YYC, probably 2-3 more routes. But there are a total of 14 US destinations from YVR while YYC had only 8. And many of those YVR to the US routes are heading to the eastern States. So you could argue that if you add more US routes from YYC, then YYC is equally well positioned, just like YVR.
* and they're not equal. Every other factor is in YVR's favour: it's bigger, it has a stronger, more diversified economy, it has stronger ethnic community ties, it has tens of thousands of astronaut families shuttling back and forth in paid J regularly, the airport has more capacity and facilities to begin with, etc.
#24
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Melbourne MEL Calgary YYC
Programs: UA1K, QF Plat, *A & Marriot Gold, OW Emerald, Hyatt Hertz PC CanPass Nexus APEC Global Entry
Posts: 468
I'm talking about the position of Vancouver and Calgary on the globe. All things being equal*, if you want to fly from coastal US population centres to major Asian cities, YVR is closer to your optimal route than YYC. In a business where margins can be 2% or less, why do you want to fly 10% further for no reason?
* and they're not equal. Every other factor is in YVR's favour: it's bigger, it has a stronger, more diversified economy, it has stronger ethnic community ties, it has tens of thousands of astronaut families shuttling back and forth in paid J regularly, the airport has more capacity and facilities to begin with, etc.
* and they're not equal. Every other factor is in YVR's favour: it's bigger, it has a stronger, more diversified economy, it has stronger ethnic community ties, it has tens of thousands of astronaut families shuttling back and forth in paid J regularly, the airport has more capacity and facilities to begin with, etc.
#26
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: sqrt(-united states of apologist)
Programs: *$ Green
Posts: 5,403
They probably treat YYC the same way they treat YUL and the Asian market. "They can connect in YYZ anyway, like the rest of our US traffic".
Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
#27
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MEX/YVR/YYF
Programs: AS MVP/AC75K/AM Gold/UA*S/SPG-Marriott Lifetime Titanium/Accor-FPC Gold/HHDiamond/Hyatt Exp
Posts: 5,035
IYHO.
There are some markets that stand out for me that are underserved by AC that let's WS print money. One that comes to mind is PVR, where clients are paying over $2K CAD for WS seats on the non-stops and in some cases, routing via YVR, YYJ or even YLW. The increased YLW flights up to WS 7x daily non-stops in W18 vs AC 3x daily. Just 2 that come to mind.
The other development that made me shake my head as the new 40 service is announced for YYZ-MEX/CUN in additional their existing YUL-MEX/CUN offering. So now we have a choice of AC, AM and now 40. Why choose AC over the others? I don't any longer.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...oronto-launch/
There are some markets that stand out for me that are underserved by AC that let's WS print money. One that comes to mind is PVR, where clients are paying over $2K CAD for WS seats on the non-stops and in some cases, routing via YVR, YYJ or even YLW. The increased YLW flights up to WS 7x daily non-stops in W18 vs AC 3x daily. Just 2 that come to mind.
The other development that made me shake my head as the new 40 service is announced for YYZ-MEX/CUN in additional their existing YUL-MEX/CUN offering. So now we have a choice of AC, AM and now 40. Why choose AC over the others? I don't any longer.
http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...oronto-launch/
#28
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 20
Lately I've been in and out of YYC from YVR 3-5 times per month and almost every single AC flight is fully booked. They're flying high utilization and have some very conspicuous gaps in scheduling that are increasingly aggravating my business travel.
...I mean, I guess. But that's like saying LAX doesn't have the demand for all of the flights it passes. Both are major TPAC hub cities for flights to/from Asia. YVR is the major gateway city on Canada's pacific coast so it really shouldn't strike you as odd that AC 'deliberately' routes pacific traffic through it.
One could also say that Port Metro Vancouver doesn't have local demand sufficient to make it the 3rd busiest port in North America... and yet, it is!
One could also say that Port Metro Vancouver doesn't have local demand sufficient to make it the 3rd busiest port in North America... and yet, it is!
#29
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ideally YOW, but probably not
Programs: AC SE*MM
Posts: 1,815
They probably treat YYC the same way they treat YUL and the Asian market. "They can connect in YYZ anyway, like the rest of our US traffic".
Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
Air Canada has a very public strategy of funneling people through hubs, which go roughy as YYZ > YVR > YUL > YYC.
YYC ends up lower on the hub totem pole because of less population, less O/D demand and a less desirable geographic situation relative the other hubs. But you still get a lot more than YOW or YEG, cities of very similar size that lose out because of our geographic proximity to other hubs. I don't think any of this is going to change.
#30
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: YQB
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,139
Similar story with YQB. We have a metro population of 1.1M yet we are only served by a fleet of Dash-8s to YUL and YYZ. I wish we had non-stop options to the EU or to the US but it is not going to happen given AC's current strategy. It seems obvious from the comments made by @RatherBeInYOW, @Hellfire that other markets feel underserved besides YYC.