Will AC continue to ignore YYC?

Old Jul 24, 2017, 11:16 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by CZBB
You do realize that Metro Vancouver has more than double the population of Metro Calgary, right?
Not quite - Greater Vancouver is 2.4 million, and Greater Calgary is about 1.4 million (city proper is 1.25 million). But the whole point of this post is that as a hub, you route traffic through. There is absolutely no way YVR has demand for all the routes it serves; AC is deliberately routing Pacific traffic through it.
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Old Jul 24, 2017, 11:19 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by YXUFlyboy
I'll throw one route out as a possible example - why a seasonal flight to MEL out of YVR? They already have year round SYD and BNE? If you were going to "try" a route, why not try that through YYC, or mix it up and share with YVR? Is the demand so high ex-YVR for Oz?
I am sure AC does not simply "try" a route. All routes are based on demand, logistic, government regulation, etc. I am sure the demand for YVR-MEL is greater than YYC-MEL, and there are more connecting flights from YVR, not to mention that in case of IRROPS YVR has more resources to handle it.
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Old Jul 24, 2017, 11:24 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by songsc
I am sure AC does not simply "try" a route. All routes are based on demand, logistic, government regulation, etc. I am sure the demand for YVR-MEL is greater than YYC-MEL, and there are more connecting flights from YVR, not to mention that in case of IRROPS YVR has more resources to handle it.
Not all routes are successful. But yes, I am sure they do their research before they give it a go. Anyway - you seem to be in the "this makes sense to me" camp - meaning AC is happy to let other carriers expand service ex-YYC while it does not. Maybe everyone is
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Old Jul 24, 2017, 11:36 pm
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Originally Posted by YXUFlyboy
I'll throw one route out as a possible example - why a seasonal flight to MEL out of YVR? They already have year round SYD and BNE? If you were going to "try" a route, why not try that through YYC, or mix it up and share with YVR? Is the demand so high ex-YVR for Oz?
I don't think this is about YVR-originating demand - YVR is simply better positioned geographically as a connecting hub for TPAC flights for passengers from the western USA, which has many times more people than either the Vancouver or Calgary metro areas.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 12:06 am
  #20  
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Originally Posted by pitz
What's AC supposed to do? Dilute YVR, so they can chase largely non-existent business at YYC? Empty front cabins? AC's strategy seems to be working, why change it?
I agree. Plus the last thing I want is connecting flight via YYC. Westjet maybe increasing their Alta flights because they have no other markets to put their aircraft into.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 12:09 am
  #21  
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Originally Posted by keitherson
I hardly think YVR is a big focus for Air Toronto. They just fly the bare minimum to get by. If AC were serious about YVR, they wouldn't be making local traffic here flying to YYZ to get to the Caribbean, huge swaths of the US, South America, etc
Does AC even have aircraft to cover the Caribbean from YVR other than their wide bodies? This may change once the 737 start showing up in their fleet.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 12:17 am
  #22  
 
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It's mostly the combination of many factors....to say YVR is better geographically positioned to the western part of the United States is not supported by the facts that there are not a lot more western states routes from YVR than YYC, probably 2-3 more routes. But there are a total of 14 US destinations from YVR while YYC had only 8. And many of those YVR to the US routes are heading to the eastern States. So you could argue that if you add more US routes from YYC, then YYC is equally well positioned, just like YVR.

I would tend to believe that most fundamental reason that AC management is not adding any new route to YYC is still the downturn of the oil industry and its impact to the traffic; the traffic volume from 2014 to 2015 was down significantly, while all other three hub airports, YYZ, YVR, YUL, have maintained 5-6% annual growth rates since 2014, the YYC annual growth rate is down at 1%?

Meanwhile you can not treat YYC as a through-traffic city. In YVR case, it's still a popular leisure destination with more attractive tourism and even residential passengers, Calgary is primarily a work-only destination, with seasonal tourism.

With the oil industry on the slow recovery, debatable if years down the road, it is hard to see the AC management add any new route to YYC in the foreseeable future. I would not bet anything in this year for sure. Any addition of international routes, like MEX or PEK, will be many years away.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 12:27 am
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Originally Posted by lespoir
It's mostly the combination of many factors....to say YVR is better geographically positioned to the western part of the United States is not supported by the facts that there are not a lot more western states routes from YVR than YYC, probably 2-3 more routes. But there are a total of 14 US destinations from YVR while YYC had only 8. And many of those YVR to the US routes are heading to the eastern States. So you could argue that if you add more US routes from YYC, then YYC is equally well positioned, just like YVR.
I'm talking about the position of Vancouver and Calgary on the globe. All things being equal*, if you want to fly from coastal US population centres to major Asian cities, YVR is closer to your optimal route than YYC. In a business where margins can be 2% or less, why do you want to fly 10% further for no reason?

* and they're not equal. Every other factor is in YVR's favour: it's bigger, it has a stronger, more diversified economy, it has stronger ethnic community ties, it has tens of thousands of astronaut families shuttling back and forth in paid J regularly, the airport has more capacity and facilities to begin with, etc.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 1:27 am
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Originally Posted by eigenvector
I'm talking about the position of Vancouver and Calgary on the globe. All things being equal*, if you want to fly from coastal US population centres to major Asian cities, YVR is closer to your optimal route than YYC. In a business where margins can be 2% or less, why do you want to fly 10% further for no reason?

* and they're not equal. Every other factor is in YVR's favour: it's bigger, it has a stronger, more diversified economy, it has stronger ethnic community ties, it has tens of thousands of astronaut families shuttling back and forth in paid J regularly, the airport has more capacity and facilities to begin with, etc.
I fly regular between YYC and MEL and there is really no option but to leave from the coast sfo lax yvr , yyc is great to get to a hub to get somewhere else
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 1:29 am
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Hahaha if you think YYC is being ignored come to YEG. At least YYC still has direct flights internationally with AC. YEG has nothing.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 1:55 am
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They probably treat YYC the same way they treat YUL and the Asian market. "They can connect in YYZ anyway, like the rest of our US traffic".

Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 2:38 am
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Originally Posted by Stranger
Seems to me, AC currently serves YYC appropriately given the demand.
IYHO.

There are some markets that stand out for me that are underserved by AC that let's WS print money. One that comes to mind is PVR, where clients are paying over $2K CAD for WS seats on the non-stops and in some cases, routing via YVR, YYJ or even YLW. The increased YLW flights up to WS 7x daily non-stops in W18 vs AC 3x daily. Just 2 that come to mind.

The other development that made me shake my head as the new 40 service is announced for YYZ-MEX/CUN in additional their existing YUL-MEX/CUN offering. So now we have a choice of AC, AM and now 40. Why choose AC over the others? I don't any longer.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/...oronto-launch/
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 2:44 am
  #28  
 
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Lately I've been in and out of YYC from YVR 3-5 times per month and almost every single AC flight is fully booked. They're flying high utilization and have some very conspicuous gaps in scheduling that are increasingly aggravating my business travel.

Originally Posted by YXUFlyboy
There is absolutely no way YVR has demand for all the routes it serves; AC is deliberately routing Pacific traffic through it.
...I mean, I guess. But that's like saying LAX doesn't have the demand for all of the flights it passes. Both are major TPAC hub cities for flights to/from Asia. YVR is the major gateway city on Canada's pacific coast so it really shouldn't strike you as odd that AC 'deliberately' routes pacific traffic through it.

One could also say that Port Metro Vancouver doesn't have local demand sufficient to make it the 3rd busiest port in North America... and yet, it is!
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 5:05 am
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Originally Posted by SparseFlyer
They probably treat YYC the same way they treat YUL and the Asian market. "They can connect in YYZ anyway, like the rest of our US traffic".

Should be happy that YYC/YEG/YVR often share the same fares for Asia P flights. YUL gets what I like to call "the rapidair surcharge".
You should try being in YOW, which always has and always will punch below our weight (metro population of 1.3M) because AC can funnel us to YYZ or YUL on a short haul flight and say "there you go". Talk to me about the rapidair surcharge.

Air Canada has a very public strategy of funneling people through hubs, which go roughy as YYZ > YVR > YUL > YYC.

YYC ends up lower on the hub totem pole because of less population, less O/D demand and a less desirable geographic situation relative the other hubs. But you still get a lot more than YOW or YEG, cities of very similar size that lose out because of our geographic proximity to other hubs. I don't think any of this is going to change.
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Old Jul 25, 2017, 5:58 am
  #30  
 
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Similar story with YQB. We have a metro population of 1.1M yet we are only served by a fleet of Dash-8s to YUL and YYZ. I wish we had non-stop options to the EU or to the US but it is not going to happen given AC's current strategy. It seems obvious from the comments made by @RatherBeInYOW, @Hellfire that other markets feel underserved besides YYC.
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