AC starving AE
#46
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delta, BC
Posts: 1,645
FWIW, the AE agent that helped me with my last booking (1.5 hrs on the phone together!) said she hasn't noticed a spike in bookings.
Granted, she might have been told to say this to reassure panicky AE customers...but that was not my impression at all, she said it almost as a throw away comment.
Granted, she might have been told to say this to reassure panicky AE customers...but that was not my impression at all, she said it almost as a throw away comment.
#47
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,889
The disconnect between some super elite status plan participants and everyone else, reminds me of a Ponzi scheme. An effective ponzi scheme pays out a high return for a select few. These few beneficiaries talk up the ponzi scheme or the lottery, offering a validation of sorts for the scheme. They do well and want it to continue because of their vested interest. They have no empathy or care for those who gain no benefit and feel ripped off.
The Madoff scheme was the most recent example of this, with its windfall returns for a select few, while everyone else had paper returns that they could not redeem. Madoff got away with his game for decades and people thought he was a good corporate citizen subject to strict regulation. As soon as the redemption rate and expenses exceeded the infusion of new money, the scheme collapsed.
My understanding is that a majority of Aeroplan participants are consistently unable to obtain the redemption they seek. This suggests that the "program" has unraveled. There are some who will say, but wait, people can get seats - they are doing it every day, so it must work. And to that I say, if Mabel Black-Label is seeking a J class redemption to LHR, or FRA, because that is the route she flies 2-4X a year, and cannot obtain her option without a surcharge of points, or an exorbitant additional fee or a portion in Y, or can only obtain a redemption of Toronto to Regina, which she sadly accepts, then something is wrong with the "loyalty" program. IMO, it is designed to deliver the least value to a customer.
I am not claiming Aeroplan is illegal, but the over exaggerated advantages of this jazzed up trading stamp program leaves many customers with the feeling that they have been exploited. Yes, some benefit quite nicely. It unfortunately, comes on the backs of people like me and Bootsie Jablonski, who has been collecting points for years so that she can get to Santa Banana for her 50th birthday celebration.
The Madoff scheme was the most recent example of this, with its windfall returns for a select few, while everyone else had paper returns that they could not redeem. Madoff got away with his game for decades and people thought he was a good corporate citizen subject to strict regulation. As soon as the redemption rate and expenses exceeded the infusion of new money, the scheme collapsed.
My understanding is that a majority of Aeroplan participants are consistently unable to obtain the redemption they seek. This suggests that the "program" has unraveled. There are some who will say, but wait, people can get seats - they are doing it every day, so it must work. And to that I say, if Mabel Black-Label is seeking a J class redemption to LHR, or FRA, because that is the route she flies 2-4X a year, and cannot obtain her option without a surcharge of points, or an exorbitant additional fee or a portion in Y, or can only obtain a redemption of Toronto to Regina, which she sadly accepts, then something is wrong with the "loyalty" program. IMO, it is designed to deliver the least value to a customer.
I am not claiming Aeroplan is illegal, but the over exaggerated advantages of this jazzed up trading stamp program leaves many customers with the feeling that they have been exploited. Yes, some benefit quite nicely. It unfortunately, comes on the backs of people like me and Bootsie Jablonski, who has been collecting points for years so that she can get to Santa Banana for her 50th birthday celebration.
#48
Rookie SE here with some AE questions
1) What is IKK?
2) The 10 Priority Awards are applicable how? I assume each way per person is an award used? Meaning 4 people return on Priority flights would be 8 rewards used, correct?
I've got 4 separate itineraries to book via AE for travel in Oct/Dec and want to be able to maximize my return and understanding.
1) What is IKK?
2) The 10 Priority Awards are applicable how? I assume each way per person is an award used? Meaning 4 people return on Priority flights would be 8 rewards used, correct?
I've got 4 separate itineraries to book via AE for travel in Oct/Dec and want to be able to maximize my return and understanding.
#49
#50
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
The disconnect between some super elite status plan participants and everyone else, reminds me of a Ponzi scheme. An effective ponzi scheme pays out a high return for a select few. These few beneficiaries talk up the ponzi scheme or the lottery, offering a validation of sorts for the scheme. They do well and want it to continue because of their vested interest. They have no empathy or care for those who gain no benefit and feel ripped off.
The Madoff scheme was the most recent example of this, with its windfall returns for a select few, while everyone else had paper returns that they could not redeem. Madoff got away with his game for decades and people thought he was a good corporate citizen subject to strict regulation. As soon as the redemption rate and expenses exceeded the infusion of new money, the scheme collapsed.
My understanding is that a majority of Aeroplan participants are consistently unable to obtain the redemption they seek. This suggests that the "program" has unraveled. There are some who will say, but wait, people can get seats - they are doing it every day, so it must work. And to that I say, if Mabel Black-Label is seeking a J class redemption to LHR, or FRA, because that is the route she flies 2-4X a year, and cannot obtain her option without a surcharge of points, or an exorbitant additional fee or a portion in Y, or can only obtain a redemption of Toronto to Regina, which she sadly accepts, then something is wrong with the "loyalty" program. IMO, it is designed to deliver the least value to a customer.
I am not claiming Aeroplan is illegal, but the over exaggerated advantages of this jazzed up trading stamp program leaves many customers with the feeling that they have been exploited. Yes, some benefit quite nicely. It unfortunately, comes on the backs of people like me and Bootsie Jablonski, who has been collecting points for years so that she can get to Santa Banana for her 50th birthday celebration.
The Madoff scheme was the most recent example of this, with its windfall returns for a select few, while everyone else had paper returns that they could not redeem. Madoff got away with his game for decades and people thought he was a good corporate citizen subject to strict regulation. As soon as the redemption rate and expenses exceeded the infusion of new money, the scheme collapsed.
My understanding is that a majority of Aeroplan participants are consistently unable to obtain the redemption they seek. This suggests that the "program" has unraveled. There are some who will say, but wait, people can get seats - they are doing it every day, so it must work. And to that I say, if Mabel Black-Label is seeking a J class redemption to LHR, or FRA, because that is the route she flies 2-4X a year, and cannot obtain her option without a surcharge of points, or an exorbitant additional fee or a portion in Y, or can only obtain a redemption of Toronto to Regina, which she sadly accepts, then something is wrong with the "loyalty" program. IMO, it is designed to deliver the least value to a customer.
I am not claiming Aeroplan is illegal, but the over exaggerated advantages of this jazzed up trading stamp program leaves many customers with the feeling that they have been exploited. Yes, some benefit quite nicely. It unfortunately, comes on the backs of people like me and Bootsie Jablonski, who has been collecting points for years so that she can get to Santa Banana for her 50th birthday celebration.
#51
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Providence RI
Programs: American Exec Plat, Hyatt Refugeeist, Marriot Gold, Air Canada Cattle Class, Korean Air Morning Plat
Posts: 988
Disagree entirely. Flyertalk is an interactive forum with different opinions and points of view. Only a fool would expect every post to be 100% entirely factual. As an aside, Transpacificflyer's Mabel Black-Label analogy is absolutely correct.
#52
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: AC MM E50 , Former SPG, now Marriott LT Plat
Posts: 6,246
round trip in F at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 transAtlantic flights in J, I was able to redeem 1 transAtlantic
flight in J at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 YYZ-YVR returns in Y, I'd be able to redeem 1 YYZ-YVR flight
at no charge, on a non-stop, when I wanted to fly.
None of these are remotely possible today.
#53
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
You may think there is no value with SE status, but it save me thousands of $ per year. Was it better in the past - Yes. Is it still a good program - Yes.
#54
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
All I know is that when FF plans were first instituted, if I flew, say, 12 round trips paid F Transpacific, I was able to redeem one Transpacific
round trip in F at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 transAtlantic flights in J, I was able to redeem 1 transAtlantic
flight in J at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 YYZ-YVR returns in Y, I'd be able to redeem 1 YYZ-YVR flight
at no charge, on a non-stop, when I wanted to fly.
None of these are remotely possible today.
round trip in F at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 transAtlantic flights in J, I was able to redeem 1 transAtlantic
flight in J at no charge, when I wanted to fly.
If I flew 12 YYZ-YVR returns in Y, I'd be able to redeem 1 YYZ-YVR flight
at no charge, on a non-stop, when I wanted to fly.
None of these are remotely possible today.
Last edited by Wpgjetse; Jul 17, 2017 at 12:56 pm
#55
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson
Posts: 35,232
I don't know what the latest shenanigans are with AE (AP) redemption, but all I have to say is that I am mightily glad I continued to earn, burn, and maximized churn on my AE (AP) points over the past decade.
If people are having issues IKK-ing routes like YYZYVR, then... oy vey.
If people are having issues IKK-ing routes like YYZYVR, then... oy vey.
#56
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Providence RI
Programs: American Exec Plat, Hyatt Refugeeist, Marriot Gold, Air Canada Cattle Class, Korean Air Morning Plat
Posts: 988
I don't know what the latest shenanigans are with AE (AP) redemption, but all I have to say is that I am mightily glad I continued to earn, burn, and maximized churn on my AE (AP) points over the past decade.
If people are having issues IKK-ing routes like YYZYVR, then... oy vey.
If people are having issues IKK-ing routes like YYZYVR, then... oy vey.
(this is a borrowed thought, not an original, some other poster on here brought it up) I think air miles are a lot like a failing African dictators currency. You can have as many as you want but the ability to turn them into actual prosaic, material things are their only value. Devaluation, rule changes, currency manipulation, rapid inflation, complete lack of any federal oversight means that airmiles are worthless as a number.
USE them.
#57
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,742
The disconnect between some super elite status plan participants and everyone else, reminds me of a Ponzi scheme. An effective ponzi scheme pays out a high return for a select few. These few beneficiaries talk up the ponzi scheme or the lottery, offering a validation of sorts for the scheme. They do well and want it to continue because of their vested interest. They have no empathy or care for those who gain no benefit and feel ripped off.
But I don't see a comparison with a Ponzi scheme at all. A deliberate fraud, grabbing cash from new subscribers to pay unrealistic returns to older contributors, just to gain time under the whole thing falls aprt. (Hoping unrealistically that actual returns will return to the unrealistically high promise perhaps.)
Just dealing with the regular AE smoke and mirror. With a bit of icing added to the cake *by AC* not AE for SEs. Because they need to provide some FF benefits to their best customers.
So let's not overdo the rhetorics. Good riddance AE. Good riddance too many points going to credit cards for cheap, and let's hope real FF benefits stay.
No poiint in blaming us SEs for the AE excesses and the unbalanced contract between AC and AE from the Milton era.
#60
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: YYC
Programs: AC Basic, UA MP Gold, Marriott Gold Elite, SPG Gold, Amex Platinum
Posts: 3,008
Good analysis @Stranger on the challenges faced by AE.
A few more points to consider:
(1) Aimia has $600 million cash and short term investments, however discounted liabilities for future point redemption are $2.2 billion.
(2) The liabilities all ready have a healthy breakage amount built into their calculation. If the assumption on breakage do not prove to be true (e.g. small time AE members decide to clear out their account), this liability could increase at a rapid rate.
(3) Aimia has suspended their dividend and key finance are in the process of finding alternate employment. The CFO departed 10 days ago. All this points to AE going into cash conservation mode.
(4) There is a real risk that average joe AE members will stop collecting AE miles and move to other programs because everyone is under the impression that rewards end June 30, 2020. This could impact AE inbound cash.
This past week in YYC was Calgary Stampede. I had a long time in various pancake and BBQ lineups with my inlaws. They have all stopped collecting AE miles through Gas, hardware store, etc. Further, they have switched into a harvest mindset. Taking a 50,000 market price reward on YYC-LAS-YYC is a lot more appealing now. Before the divorce announcement, all my inlaws were hoping to cash in a J class reward to Europe.
So multiply my mother in law, wife's aunt and uncle over the "average joe/jane" person collecting AE miles, and the financing question faced by Aimia is whether they have a 2.2 billion liability or a 4 billion liability. This question is exclusive of SE and Altitude status holders, most of whom have redeemed as the earn on at least a few occasions.
A few more points to consider:
(1) Aimia has $600 million cash and short term investments, however discounted liabilities for future point redemption are $2.2 billion.
(2) The liabilities all ready have a healthy breakage amount built into their calculation. If the assumption on breakage do not prove to be true (e.g. small time AE members decide to clear out their account), this liability could increase at a rapid rate.
(3) Aimia has suspended their dividend and key finance are in the process of finding alternate employment. The CFO departed 10 days ago. All this points to AE going into cash conservation mode.
(4) There is a real risk that average joe AE members will stop collecting AE miles and move to other programs because everyone is under the impression that rewards end June 30, 2020. This could impact AE inbound cash.
This past week in YYC was Calgary Stampede. I had a long time in various pancake and BBQ lineups with my inlaws. They have all stopped collecting AE miles through Gas, hardware store, etc. Further, they have switched into a harvest mindset. Taking a 50,000 market price reward on YYC-LAS-YYC is a lot more appealing now. Before the divorce announcement, all my inlaws were hoping to cash in a J class reward to Europe.
So multiply my mother in law, wife's aunt and uncle over the "average joe/jane" person collecting AE miles, and the financing question faced by Aimia is whether they have a 2.2 billion liability or a 4 billion liability. This question is exclusive of SE and Altitude status holders, most of whom have redeemed as the earn on at least a few occasions.