Exclusive: SFO near miss might have triggered ‘greatest aviation disaster in history’
Oct 13, 2018, 12:46 pm
#1006
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I agree completely. It seems however there are two kinds of people when comes to near death events. The first are the hysterics who quiver in panic shouting, "OMFG, we might have been KILLED!!!!" The second are calmer people who take a deep breath, change their undergarments if necessary, then start looking for ways to ensure the same event doesn't happen again.
In particular there is a third type, typically airline execs and other industry types, who claim "run along, nothing to see here, no major changes required, maybe just a few tweaks, everything worked the way it should."
Oct 13, 2018, 8:51 pm
#1007
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1. Not quite what I'm saying. I'm talking about putting punitive penalties in place before hand to shape reserve pilot behaviour. There is presumably some economic incentive associated with operating as a reserve. The risk associated with taking advantage of that incentive when impaired needs to be commensurately high before hand.
2. For better or worse, they reacted slowly, and compounded it by claiming they were too tired to report the incident. While anything is possible with respect to DL, the onus is on you, as the person making the claim, to show evidence that the DL pilots were in fact fatigued. What we know is DL misaligned and corrected without breaching any safety limits. What we also know is that AC took this shockingly close, and that AC's own pilots have claimed that fatigue impaired their performance during the incident and their post-flight reaction to it. The DL issue is a bit of a red herring IMHO.
3. Dont take my word for it. Take the FAA and TC's. It's on page 6/7 of this submission. Note that TC's proposed new rules are also inferior to the global average.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61112/614672.pdf
4. What do I think about TC's motivations? Let me put it this way: in the 2016 review of the Transport Canada Act, Emerson all but accused them of suffering from regulatory capture in some aspects of the way they do business with respect to aviation. Would it surprise me if that approach bled over into this area? No.
2) The CA also indicated that the fatigue had nothing to do with being overworked. I am not sure that changing regulations would have resolved this. He had kids keeping him up. It appears that what you are saying is that as long as I can't provide evidence to show that American pilots are also fatigued, at times, that means they never are. Okay.
3) Does that chart show the regulations of every developed country in the world?
Oct 14, 2018, 12:51 am
#1008
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
1) I don't have personal knowledge about AC's policy with regards to being fit for work, and punitive actions for breach. Do you? I believe I could get an answer, though. I do know that there would be no penalty for declining the assignment because of fatigue, though.
2) The CA also indicated that the fatigue had nothing to do with being overworked. I am not sure that changing regulations would have resolved this. He had kids keeping him up. It appears that what you are saying is that as long as I can't provide evidence to show that American pilots are also fatigued, at times, that means they never are. Okay.
3) Does that chart show the regulations of every developed country in the world?
2) The CA also indicated that the fatigue had nothing to do with being overworked. I am not sure that changing regulations would have resolved this. He had kids keeping him up. It appears that what you are saying is that as long as I can't provide evidence to show that American pilots are also fatigued, at times, that means they never are. Okay.
3) Does that chart show the regulations of every developed country in the world?
2. Do I have knowledge of AC's policies? Only to the extent that they're covered in AC's submission and the report. But then again, like many here, I've also had a front row seat to AC's cost-cutting/profit maximization approach. I find it interesting it that when it comes to nickel and dining, AC literally states that it does so to align with "prevailing North American industry practices". Odd that they don't align with those very standards on this particular safety related issue. Any idea why?
3. Where did I say US pilots are never fatigued? I am willing to say that US FAA rules aimed at tackling the issue are more stringent than Canadian regs, which lowers the likelihood significantly. You tried to attribute their misalignment to fatigue, but there is nothing to suggest they were fatigued. There is plenty to suggest that the AC pilots were fatigued. Worth noting that the NTSB has asked TC to fix its regs. Did they have reasonable grounds to do so? Either you view them as a credible authority in this issue, or you don't.
4. If his kids kept him up, he shouldn't have gone in. Just as he wouldn't have if he was still feeling the effects of an evening of drinking. Thats where the consequences need to be made clear before hand. Regardless of AC management, it doesn't say much for the professional judgment of these pilots, or how it's being assessed.
5. All the jurisdictions covered are listed on the right side of the graph. Check it out instead of asking speculative questions, and you'll find out.
Last edited by yulred; Oct 14, 2018 at 12:56 am
Oct 14, 2018, 7:46 am
#1009
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There was an AskReddit thread in the last few days about the nature of being a FA. One of the recurring themes was that it was a 24/7 job, and no relaxing ever. You just did not know when you would be called in to work. YYZ-SFO isn't bouncing around the North East in a Q400 but neither is it some ultra long flight TATL TPAC which involves hanging out in a Marriott for 26 hours between flying.
Maybe I'm not as professional as professional pilots, but if you are telling me when to sleep, when to not drink, when to not do otherwise legal prescription or recreation drugs, then I'm working for you at that time, and should be paid. And not some token pager fee, either.
I'm thinking of fire fighters or someone working an oil rig. 4 days on, 3 days off. 3 weeks on, 1 week off. FF (other sense) work as needed, but oil crews would have, even when in camp, a pretty solid schedule. But their life in the station, camp, or platform is controlled. When they go home, they go home. Merchant mariners, commercial fisherman. Examples galore.
Airlines may have reached a local maximum; they are now down to polishing bone at this point, redlining the human creature. Expecting professionalism and perfection (with peanut gallery calls for criminal sanctions) from sacks of flawed meat. Airplanes do not crash because of mechanical (electrical, hydraulic) issues. They crash because of a chain of 5 problems; individual widgets got as reliable as they could a generation ago; we build a better system.
Perhaps an extended schedule that other industries have organically evolved themselves into would be a better approach.
Maybe I'm not as professional as professional pilots, but if you are telling me when to sleep, when to not drink, when to not do otherwise legal prescription or recreation drugs, then I'm working for you at that time, and should be paid. And not some token pager fee, either.
I'm thinking of fire fighters or someone working an oil rig. 4 days on, 3 days off. 3 weeks on, 1 week off. FF (other sense) work as needed, but oil crews would have, even when in camp, a pretty solid schedule. But their life in the station, camp, or platform is controlled. When they go home, they go home. Merchant mariners, commercial fisherman. Examples galore.
Airlines may have reached a local maximum; they are now down to polishing bone at this point, redlining the human creature. Expecting professionalism and perfection (with peanut gallery calls for criminal sanctions) from sacks of flawed meat. Airplanes do not crash because of mechanical (electrical, hydraulic) issues. They crash because of a chain of 5 problems; individual widgets got as reliable as they could a generation ago; we build a better system.
Perhaps an extended schedule that other industries have organically evolved themselves into would be a better approach.
Oct 14, 2018, 8:40 am
#1010
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There was an AskReddit thread in the last few days about the nature of being a FA. One of the recurring themes was that it was a 24/7 job, and no relaxing ever. You just did not know when you would be called in to work. YYZ-SFO isn't bouncing around the North East in a Q400 but neither is it some ultra long flight TATL TPAC which involves hanging out in a Marriott for 26 hours between flying.
Maybe I'm not as professional as professional pilots, but if you are telling me when to sleep, when to not drink, when to not do otherwise legal prescription or recreation drugs, then I'm working for you at that time, and should be paid. And not some token pager fee, either.
I'm thinking of fire fighters or someone working an oil rig. 4 days on, 3 days off. 3 weeks on, 1 week off. FF (other sense) work as needed, but oil crews would have, even when in camp, a pretty solid schedule. But their life in the station, camp, or platform is controlled. When they go home, they go home. Merchant mariners, commercial fisherman. Examples galore.
Airlines may have reached a local maximum; they are now down to polishing bone at this point, redlining the human creature. Expecting professionalism and perfection (with peanut gallery calls for criminal sanctions) from sacks of flawed meat. Airplanes do not crash because of mechanical (electrical, hydraulic) issues. They crash because of a chain of 5 problems; individual widgets got as reliable as they could a generation ago; we build a better system.
Perhaps an extended schedule that other industries have organically evolved themselves into would be a better approach.
Maybe I'm not as professional as professional pilots, but if you are telling me when to sleep, when to not drink, when to not do otherwise legal prescription or recreation drugs, then I'm working for you at that time, and should be paid. And not some token pager fee, either.
I'm thinking of fire fighters or someone working an oil rig. 4 days on, 3 days off. 3 weeks on, 1 week off. FF (other sense) work as needed, but oil crews would have, even when in camp, a pretty solid schedule. But their life in the station, camp, or platform is controlled. When they go home, they go home. Merchant mariners, commercial fisherman. Examples galore.
Airlines may have reached a local maximum; they are now down to polishing bone at this point, redlining the human creature. Expecting professionalism and perfection (with peanut gallery calls for criminal sanctions) from sacks of flawed meat. Airplanes do not crash because of mechanical (electrical, hydraulic) issues. They crash because of a chain of 5 problems; individual widgets got as reliable as they could a generation ago; we build a better system.
Perhaps an extended schedule that other industries have organically evolved themselves into would be a better approach.
Pairings is what the flight crews bid for. A pairing is a sequence of flights spanning from 1 to 3 or 4 days. The more senior crews in a base get their first choice for pairings. It is all based on seniority.
Oct 14, 2018, 8:54 am
#1011
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Crews bid for, and receive, their schedules in the 4th quarter of the month. Their schedule is locked in for the next month. Junior workers don't get to bid, they go on reserve. Senior workers only go on reserve if they choose to put their name on reserve.
Pairings is what the flight crews bid for. A pairing is a sequence of flights spanning from 1 to 3 or 4 days. The more senior crews in a base get their first choice for pairings. It is all based on seniority.
Pairings is what the flight crews bid for. A pairing is a sequence of flights spanning from 1 to 3 or 4 days. The more senior crews in a base get their first choice for pairings. It is all based on seniority.
Oct 14, 2018, 8:59 am
#1012
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Oct 14, 2018, 9:10 am
#1013
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Oct 14, 2018, 9:54 am
#1014
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Oct 14, 2018, 4:55 pm
#1015
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Crews bid for, and receive, their schedules in the 4th quarter of the month. Their schedule is locked in for the next month. Junior workers don't get to bid, they go on reserve. Senior workers only go on reserve if they choose to put their name on reserve.
Pairings is what the flight crews bid for. A pairing is a sequence of flights spanning from 1 to 3 or 4 days. The more senior crews in a base get their first choice for pairings. It is all based on seniority.
Pairings is what the flight crews bid for. A pairing is a sequence of flights spanning from 1 to 3 or 4 days. The more senior crews in a base get their first choice for pairings. It is all based on seniority.
Ok, senior staff get a good schedule and can plan their lives. So my proposal might only apply to junior staff. Ok. Fine.
If they don't schedule enough senior staff (who invariably get delayed, have funerals, get sick, are otherwise legitimately or otherwise unavailable at some moment), and just expect junior staff to sit around sleeping and sober for no pay, then perhaps they should offer up some compensation to do so. And enforce the requirement to do so.
Locking them up 75mi NE of Ft Mcmoney for 6 weeks handles this implicitly. Locking them up on a 42' cape islander 100nm ssw of Yarmouth seems to take care of this implicitly. Locking them up in a day room on the 4th floor of YYZ would as well.
If Air Canada (and TC and the FAA) care what flight crew do the 24 hours before flying, then they should actually control that. And actually pay for that.
"Reserve" pilots should be able to go to a bday party as least as accurately as this PAX who flies 2X a week
Oct 14, 2018, 5:04 pm
#1016
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An accurate description of today doesn't discount a left field discussion point for the future.
Ok, senior staff get a good schedule and can plan their lives. So my proposal might only apply to junior staff. Ok. Fine.
If they don't schedule enough senior staff (who invariably get delayed, have funerals, get sick, are otherwise legitimately or otherwise unavailable at some moment), and just expect junior staff to sit around sleeping and sober for no pay, then perhaps they should offer up some compensation to do so. And enforce the requirement to do so.
Locking them up 75mi NE of Ft Mcmoney for 6 weeks handles this implicitly. Locking them up on a 42' cape islander 100nm ssw of Yarmouth seems to take care of this implicitly. Locking them up in a day room on the 4th floor of YYZ would as well.
If Air Canada (and TC and the FAA) care what flight crew do the 24 hours before flying, then they should actually control that. And actually pay for that.
"Reserve" pilots should be able to go to a bday party as least as accurately as this PAX who flies 2X a week
Ok, senior staff get a good schedule and can plan their lives. So my proposal might only apply to junior staff. Ok. Fine.
If they don't schedule enough senior staff (who invariably get delayed, have funerals, get sick, are otherwise legitimately or otherwise unavailable at some moment), and just expect junior staff to sit around sleeping and sober for no pay, then perhaps they should offer up some compensation to do so. And enforce the requirement to do so.
Locking them up 75mi NE of Ft Mcmoney for 6 weeks handles this implicitly. Locking them up on a 42' cape islander 100nm ssw of Yarmouth seems to take care of this implicitly. Locking them up in a day room on the 4th floor of YYZ would as well.
If Air Canada (and TC and the FAA) care what flight crew do the 24 hours before flying, then they should actually control that. And actually pay for that.
"Reserve" pilots should be able to go to a bday party as least as accurately as this PAX who flies 2X a week
Edit: I just asked the SD on this flight. She advises me that a junior employee gets a minimum amount of hours paid, if they don't work, while on reserve. So, they do get paid to be ready to go.
Oct 14, 2018, 5:24 pm
#1017
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,002
Pilots, and f/a's get paid to be on reserve. Just salary. No per diems.
That why some senior people bid reserve.
Crew sched phones and the senior employee declines and the trip goes junior. Until there are no junior people left.
WS did not and may still not have reserve crews.
I guess there have been enough people who will cover the trips on overtime that reserve hasn't been needed.
That why some senior people bid reserve.
Crew sched phones and the senior employee declines and the trip goes junior. Until there are no junior people left.
WS did not and may still not have reserve crews.
I guess there have been enough people who will cover the trips on overtime that reserve hasn't been needed.
Oct 14, 2018, 5:32 pm
#1018
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I've never gotten pager pay, but I can't imagine how high it would have to be to not still do whatever I was going to do.
That a not-junior was on reserve and was tired makes it worse. The economic incentive to *maybe* work was clearly not high enough to go to bed.
That a not-junior was on reserve and was tired makes it worse. The economic incentive to *maybe* work was clearly not high enough to go to bed.
Oct 14, 2018, 6:11 pm
#1019
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I find it comical to relate the amount of pay to the professionalism. I wonder what exact number you think it would take to give him "incentive" to go to bed.
I have spoken to many folks who have flown on reserve. For the most part, they actually take it very seriously. However, life does happen. They get to decide, when they get the call, whether they are fit to go.
I wonder, how much are you prepared to pay, as a passenger, to look after a reserve employee? Will you pay for their child care? Will you pay their full wage, and keep them in a hotel room? Will you guarantee that, while they are in their hotel room there will be no noises or other distractions, while they try to sleep during the day?
Life just isn't as simple as your make belief world.
Oct 14, 2018, 6:13 pm
#1020
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He went to bed. His kids woke him up early.
I find it comical to relate the amount of pay to the professionalism. I wonder what exact number you think it would take to give him "incentive" to go to bed.
I have spoken to many folks who have flown on reserve. For the most part, they actually take it very seriously. However, life does happen. They get to decide, when they get the call, whether they are fit to go.
I wonder, how much are you prepared to pay, as a passenger, to look after a reserve employee? Will you pay for their child care? Will you pay their full wage, and keep them in a hotel room? Will you guarantee that, while they are in their hotel room there will be no noises or other distractions, while they try to sleep during the day?
Life just isn't as simple as your make belief world.
I find it comical to relate the amount of pay to the professionalism. I wonder what exact number you think it would take to give him "incentive" to go to bed.
I have spoken to many folks who have flown on reserve. For the most part, they actually take it very seriously. However, life does happen. They get to decide, when they get the call, whether they are fit to go.
I wonder, how much are you prepared to pay, as a passenger, to look after a reserve employee? Will you pay for their child care? Will you pay their full wage, and keep them in a hotel room? Will you guarantee that, while they are in their hotel room there will be no noises or other distractions, while they try to sleep during the day?
Life just isn't as simple as your make belief world.
What was the economic incentive to say yes?