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Exclusive: SFO near miss might have triggered ‘greatest aviation disaster in history’

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Exclusive: SFO near miss might have triggered ‘greatest aviation disaster in history’

   
Old Aug 10, 2017, 9:50 pm
  #736  
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Originally Posted by dhuey
What are the odds that something worse happens on the second approach? Preserve the data you know is valuable and take the chance that nothing of significance happens once the crew realizes that it lined up with the taxiway rather than the runway.
What are the odds of a double bird strike immediately upon departure against an ETOPS aircraft on a route where ETOPS-equipment was not required resulting in a water ditching with zero fatalities?

Upon go-around, I think the crew got more pressing concerns especially realizing what they just avoided than to disable the CVR; namely following the go-around checklist. Pretty sure disabling CVR is not on that checklist.

Besides is it even legal for CVR to be disabled while a flight is still being operated under 14 CFR Part 129?
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Old Aug 10, 2017, 10:00 pm
  #737  
 
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Originally Posted by dhuey
Ideally we preserve everything, but if we have to choose between the first and second approach, can there be any serious doubt that we keep the first one? At least two crews on the taxiway and the tower could see that the first approach was a major incident.
With the benefit of hindsight and knowing now that nothing did happen on the second approach, sure. But you can't make that choice in advance with out the benefit of the clairvoyant knowledge that nothing will happen. Not even close.
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Old Aug 10, 2017, 11:14 pm
  #738  
 
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Originally Posted by After Burner
Actually, "unplugging" the CVR would've been very easy for a pilot to do. One of the pilots could have simply opened one of the aircraft doors, climbed rearward along the fuselage (using suction cups) until reaching the tail section where the access panel is located for the CVR and FDR. While making his way back there he could've been reading the section of the technical manual that describes how to open the access panel and disable the device.
Or, they could have simply reached down and pulled the circuit breaker, effectively achieving the same result.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 7:01 am
  #739  
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
Or, they could have simply reached down and pulled the circuit breaker, effectively achieving the same result.
I'm not in the know on this, but are you sure this would work? I'd be shocked if the CVR does not have an internal backup power source that would kick in to continue recording even if the circuit breaker/external power is cut.

What you are suggesting seems way too easy to tamper with.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 7:15 am
  #740  
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Originally Posted by The Lev
I'm not in the know on this, but are you sure this would work? I'd be shocked if the CVR does not have an internal backup power source that would kick in to continue recording even if the circuit breaker/external power is cut.

What you are suggesting seems way too easy to tamper with.
Nope, it is designed exactly that way so that the data can easily be preserved. Pulling the breaker is SOP for reportable incidents (...)

Too many links to post but just google CVR pull breaker and many links come up, including a PDF which uses this reset as part of a calibration procedure.

The issue is the moronic 30 minute limit, not the breaker. As I stated earlier, pilot privacy should never usurp passenger safety.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 8:05 am
  #741  
 
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Originally Posted by dhuey
Ideally we preserve everything, but if we have to choose between the first and second approach, can there be any serious doubt that we keep the first one? At least two crews on the taxiway and the tower could see that the first approach was a major incident.
Consider the other scenarios of go-around's. Weather. Do you want the CVR for the appropriately executed go-around, or for the second attempt (possibly at a diversion airport the pilots have charts but not personal experience) where they crash.

In this particular flight the weirdness happened 90% of the way through. In most flights where bad things happen, they happen at 99.99% of the way through.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 12:13 pm
  #742  
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Originally Posted by dhuey
What are the odds that something worse happens on the second approach? Preserve the data you know is valuable and take the chance that nothing of significance happens once the crew realizes that it lined up with the taxiway rather than the runway.
You're still focusing on the wrong issue.

Originally Posted by Admiral Ackbar
The issue is the moronic 30 minute limit, not the breaker. As I stated earlier, pilot privacy should never usurp passenger safety.
This.

This discussion shouldn't be possible, because data storage density has increased by many orders of magnitude since the first 30 minute CVR was created.

If there's one thing that comes out of this investigation, it shouldn't be whether they should have pulled the breaker mid-air or immediately after getting to the gate. It's that the CVR should store days/weeks of data so that it doesn't matter what (in)action that pilot takes.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 12:37 pm
  #743  
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
This discussion shouldn't be possible, because data storage density has increased by many orders of magnitude since the first 30 minute CVR was created.

If there's one thing that comes out of this investigation, it shouldn't be whether they should have pulled the breaker mid-air or immediately after getting to the gate. It's that the CVR should store days/weeks of data so that it doesn't matter what (in)action that pilot takes.
I agree. But I imagine that it could be very expensive to replace all of the old equipment that stores only 30 minutes. If that is true, then an easy means to turn off the recorder to preserve evidence might be warranted.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 2:04 pm
  #744  
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"Experts" are quoted.


Posted: August 11, 2017 3:44 pm ET

‘Important’ evidence erased after Air Canada jet’s near miss at San Francisco airport

By Andrew Russell

http://globalnews.ca/news/3663958/im...cisco-airport/
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 2:46 pm
  #745  
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Has it come out yet whether the pilots were subjected to drug testing after the incident?
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 2:51 pm
  #746  
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Originally Posted by 24left
"Experts" are quoted.


Posted: August 11, 2017 3:44 pm ET

‘Important’ evidence erased after Air Canada jet’s near miss at San Francisco airport

By Andrew Russell

http://globalnews.ca/news/3663958/im...cisco-airport/
I read that but unless I missed something it really doesn't say anything new that we didn't already know
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 3:15 pm
  #747  
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Originally Posted by tcook052
I read that but unless I missed something it really doesn't say anything new that we didn't already know
Right. I just assumed we were also posting items reported in the mainstream media - even if they add no value (thus my opening line and the :roll eyes: )
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 3:22 pm
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Originally Posted by dhuey
Has it come out yet whether the pilots were subjected to drug testing after the incident?
There has been no official word on this, that I've seen.

Given that the pilots continued flying the next day, and no efforts were made to secure evidence from the plane, I think it's virtually certain that no immediate testing was done. This is my opinion only.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 3:32 pm
  #749  
 
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Originally Posted by Admiral Ackbar
The issue is the moronic 30 minute limit, not the breaker. As I stated earlier, pilot privacy should never usurp passenger safety.
Precisely. I'm finding it difficult to align my views on workplace privacy with those of the pilots and their union. The benefits to future accident prevention and lessons learned would seem to easily outweigh any real or imagined concerns of employer oversight.

Originally Posted by dhuey
But I imagine that it could be very expensive to replace all of the old equipment that stores only 30 minutes. If that is true, then an easy means to turn off the recorder to preserve evidence might be warranted.
They replaced all the ELTs when new regulations were introduced. Same with the transponders. These are plug & play boxes, and such incremental costs should not be a barrier.

Originally Posted by dhuey
Has it come out yet whether the pilots were subjected to drug testing after the incident?
I imagine the pilots' union would vigorously resist this, but that's just an uninformed take.
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Old Aug 11, 2017, 3:38 pm
  #750  
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
I imagine the pilots' union would vigorously resist this, but that's just an uninformed take.
I'm guessing the crews on taxiway Charlie would have supported it.
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