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AC Comments on Proposed Transportation Modernization Act (Passenger Bill of Rights)

AC Comments on Proposed Transportation Modernization Act (Passenger Bill of Rights)

Old May 28, 18, 2:36 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by vernonc
Maybe we should organize a DO and invite them
or organize a DO in and during one of the public consultation venues
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Old May 28, 18, 7:16 pm
  #32  
 
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I just did the survey. A lot of it relates to communication, but they missed the most important point: Airlines need to tell the truth when faced with IRROPS.

Assuming the CTA adopts some form of obligation related to delays or cancelations, the airlines need to be prevented from exploiting workarounds. Telling the truth would be a good start.
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Old May 28, 18, 10:09 pm
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Sopwith
Airlines need to tell the truth when faced with IRROPS.
Presumably you mean when an airline is dealing with an IRROPS arising from internal operational practice that is reasonably understandable - whatever that means....

How are airlines to tell the truth when the truth may NOT be forthcoming for hours - I have been traveling fair amount around and through EU of late. Well, how does CTA force AC to disclose the truth when EU air traffic controllers, ground handlers, you name it, decide to take an unscheduled break (some may remember the term "wobble" for industrial action - not the song).

Faced this few weeks ago on Air Italy (formerly Meridiana, and now 49% owned by Qatar Air) enroute from Malpensa to Dakar - at departure gate pilot came on, said sit tight as French airspace severely restricted for the above reason and we would leave when we leave (quite typical Italian saying for service hiccups).

Nothing comes for free, and folks who demand AC STOP OVERBOOKING, well that will simply mean we ALL pay more as this guarantees plenty of empty seats. You want guaranteed service, or better than what commercial airlines can offer, check this out partly owned by one of the world's richest person.

https://www.netjets.com/en-us/

And even this level of wealth cannot stop an IRROPS from forces truly outside flight operations controls, and may not have time limit that results in a truthful response.

Last edited by skybluesea; May 28, 18 at 10:11 pm Reason: footnote
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Old May 28, 18, 10:18 pm
  #34  
 
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Just did the survey; a real waste of time!

In particular it seems to pre-assume that a tarmac delay of up to three hours is acceptable (although the Senate of Canada disagrees!)

For most people three hours is totally unacceptable - and in some cases such as the headline one last year, would constitute a serious health risk.
There is no attention given to passengers' rights in the event of diversion.

While there is a huge amount of attention given regarding passengers' rights to receive accurate, timely communications prior to departure there is no apparent passengers' rights to receive accurate, timely and honest communication while onboard, either airborne or on the ground.

For example, last year during local bad weather at YYZ aircraft were being stacked waiting for clearance. A flight (NOT AC!) from YVR to YYZ while over Lake Superior just south of Thunder Bay told YYZ Centre on the SSMarie 132.650 channel that they weren't going to be held and asked to divert to YOW. What are passengers' rights in such a situation - or were they informed in advance! Everyone else landed ok in YYZ!

The Transport Canada survey is a useless waste of time if the questions asked do not address ALL the concerns passengers have.

We really need an enforceable EU261 here!
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Old May 28, 18, 10:29 pm
  #35  
 
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Presumably you mean when an airline is dealing with an IRROPS arising from internal operational practice that is reasonably understandable - whatever that means....
No. What I mean is tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If you don't know, tell me you don't know. Don't tell me a fictitious or wishful time or excuse, hoping I'll go away and stop bothering you, only to tell me something different half an hour later.

Faced this few weeks ago on Air Italy (formerly Meridiana, and now 49% owned by Qatar Air) enroute from Malpensa to Dakar - at departure gate pilot came on, said sit tight as French airspace severely restricted for the above reason and we would leave when we leave
This is what I mean. Tell the truth. He didn't know and said so, more or less.

Nothing comes for free, and folks who demand AC STOP OVERBOOKING, well that will simply mean we ALL pay more as this guarantees plenty of empty seats.
I don't buy this argument at all. If you believe what the airlines tell us, i.e. that less than 0.0x% of passengers get IDBd, then the price we all pay should rise no more than 0.0x%. They claim it's a trivial number, so the price increase to offset their impugned loss must by their own argument also be trivial. The solution is obvious: no more IDB. You keep upping the ante until enough people VDB.
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Old May 28, 18, 10:31 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
For example, last year during local bad weather at YYZ aircraft were being stacked waiting for clearance. A flight (NOT AC!) from YVR to YYZ while over Lake Superior just south of Thunder Bay told YYZ Centre on the SSMarie 132.650 channel that they weren't going to be held and asked to divert to YOW. What are passengers' rights in such a situation - or were they informed in advance! Everyone else landed ok in YYZ!
So you presenting your judgement here over the Pilot-in-Command in situ-?

Your evidence please that this course of action was NOT caused by matters unknown to you?

IRROPS happen, the question is does the airline have control over circumstances of NOT? Too many have expectations that airlines are in control over more than they actually are.

and you can always prepare a submission or attend one of the consultation events if you have other views to express.
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Old May 28, 18, 10:41 pm
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Sopwith
I don't buy this argument at all. If you believe what the airlines tell us, i.e. that less than 0.0x% of passengers get IDBd, then the price we all pay should rise no more than 0.0x%. They claim it's a trivial number, so the price increase to offset their impugned loss must by their own argument also be trivial. The solution is obvious: no more IDB. You keep upping the ante until enough people VDB.
For this to happen, then as SEMM, AC will need to take away from me, and even E75k if I recall correctly the ability to bump another traveler off a flight when full...

Have only done this once, but your solution, assuming AC allows me to retain the above, means that AC in accepting my full fare ticket could be paying unlimited amount to VBD someone else.

Simple solution to your position - and logic here is why should AC customers accept IBD risk - nobody puts a gun to your head to buy AC.

Go buy someone else if you don't like IBD - customer choice, and rather few places that AC does NOT have competition in domestic environment, and for international well competition is nearly limitless.

Good luck with your new airline - let us know who you choose
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Old May 28, 18, 11:20 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by skybluesea
For this to happen, then as SEMM, AC will need to take away from me, and even E75k if I recall correctly the ability to bump another traveler off a flight when full...

Have only done this once, but your solution, assuming AC allows me to retain the above, means that AC in accepting my full fare ticket could be paying unlimited amount to VBD someone else.
Yes and yes.

In my book, selling someone a ticket and then telling them its no good because someone else offered them more money is fraud.
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Old May 29, 18, 12:03 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Sopwith
In my book, selling someone a ticket and then telling them its no good because someone else offered them more money is fraud.
The Tariff specifies the terms of trade...and makes IDB part of the contract...,and enforceable to boot.

you deny then what you have previously agreed to then?

Consequently, if I understand, the view you express is that the Tariff is irrelevant...that you wish to have your own contract terms.

Then we agree...other airlines do not include IBD in their contracts, and so when you choose another airline with contract terms that you desire...please advise so we are aware of the alternative options to avoid IDB risk.

thank you...
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Old May 29, 18, 3:01 am
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by skybluesea
For this to happen, then as SEMM, AC will need to take away from me, and even E75k if I recall correctly the ability to bump another traveler off a flight when full...
This privilege greatly offends me.
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Old May 29, 18, 5:04 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by jc94


"Air Canada constantly strives for customer service excellence, and is committed to doing so within a cost competitive framework."

?
What BS.
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Old May 29, 18, 6:55 am
  #42  
 
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Without recording and publishing a flight's ATC communications....

Originally Posted by skybluesea
So you presenting your judgement here over the Pilot-in-Command in situ-?
Your evidence please that this course of action was NOT caused by matters unknown to you?
IRROPS happen, the question is does the airline have control over circumstances of NOT? Too many have expectations that airlines are in control over more than they actually are. and you can always prepare a submission or attend one of the consultation events if you have other views to express.
There was an extensive conversation at the time between the aircraft and ATC. In effect the PIC made an extremely early decision to divert while they were about two hours out of YYZ and told ATC they didn't want to continue and have to be delayed.

This was just several days after the much publicised Ottawa incident that made headlines around the world and the same airline and aircraft type. Other than being low on fuel (not declared) or risking exceeding their maximum crew hours ( hard to believe on a simple transcon run) there was no justification in diverting rather simply than joining the queue and taking their turn like everyone else.

For the record I was watching the flight on radar and saw the route they took while listening to them. Normal eastbound route to YYZ while over Lake Superior involves routing over a track north of SSMarie and down over Gore Bay to the Bruce Peninsula (where one of the stacks was). This flight stayed north and crossed over the Timmins area en route to Ottawa.

Sorry; evidence is hard to provide, as I'm sure you well know.

Being an airline passenger involves a huge degree of blind trust. It never hurts to accumulate as much info as possible as it enables better understanding of what happens on a daily basis.
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Old May 29, 18, 8:01 am
  #43  
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Originally Posted by smallmj
This privilege greatly offends me.
and same advice as offered to SOPWITH

Are you being held hostage to AC in some manner?

Let us know which airline has a Tariff that does NOT offend you...others might benefit from shifting over too.

ps...and for your reference to "privilege"...the transaction between Altitude members and AC is simply an EARNED DISCOUNT...consequently, as you do NOT like the Terms of Trade, yet presumably you still keep purchasing from a firm that you disrespect.

Check this out...might help you out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
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Old May 29, 18, 8:01 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by skybluesea
Nothing comes for free, and folks who demand AC STOP OVERBOOKING, well that will simply mean we ALL pay more as this guarantees plenty of empty seats.
.
AC and its shareholders should just accept that their profit margin is gonna be lower because part of it is dedicated to improve consumer experience, that's the cost of being a good corporate citizen. No need to raise prices.
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Old May 29, 18, 8:06 am
  #45  
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
the PIC made an extremely early decision to divert

there was no justification in diverting
again, you are replacing your arm-chair judgement with the PIC in-situ...regardless of the amount of info your getting by eves-dropping on active decision-making.

accordingly, it would appear you believe that the PIC acted incorrectly...well, then you can always make a complaint to Transport Canada and ask this be investigated to ensure the CARS are being followed, and airspace NOT being used in improper ways.

good luck and let us know what turns up from your complaint.
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