Couple 'flabbergasted' after AC suspends tickets charging $6K to return from Portugal
May 21, 2017, 10:36 am
#151
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Given the obvious physical security and ID checks at airports, flight tickets seem an odd way to monetize stolen credit cards, but if it's a good option, something is working.
If MURICA can figure out chip and pin like the real world, we will be doing much better. If AC (and Amex) can figure out how to bounce transactions through Amex at time-of-sale, even better.
If MURICA can figure out chip and pin like the real world, we will be doing much better. If AC (and Amex) can figure out how to bounce transactions through Amex at time-of-sale, even better.
May 21, 2017, 10:47 am
#152
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(1) Where'd you get that part about them not having the card?
Unless you're calling the guy an outright liar,
(2) TAP had no interest in seeing his CC (why would they? he never used it - or anything else - to pay TAP.)
(3) They told him AC cancelled him and thus he's no longer ticketed. The told him take it up with AC. And then - again if we're to believe his story - he bought another ticket on AC with the same card.
(4) I saw earlier you said that meant he did a second online purchase. But that too seems like a whole cloth assumption.
Finally in the end AC paid him, as ungraciously as they possibly could, but they paid.
(5) Maybe you want to call the guy a liar and imply that he's using sleazy lawyer sidesteps to avoid answering questions.
Unless you're calling the guy an outright liar,
(2) TAP had no interest in seeing his CC (why would they? he never used it - or anything else - to pay TAP.)
(3) They told him AC cancelled him and thus he's no longer ticketed. The told him take it up with AC. And then - again if we're to believe his story - he bought another ticket on AC with the same card.
(4) I saw earlier you said that meant he did a second online purchase. But that too seems like a whole cloth assumption.
Finally in the end AC paid him, as ungraciously as they possibly could, but they paid.
(5) Maybe you want to call the guy a liar and imply that he's using sleazy lawyer sidesteps to avoid answering questions.
My IT systems knowledge and payment card industry knowledge point to this being a TP computer system issue and not an AC system issue.
I don’t subscribe to the notion that the complainants arrived at the TP checkin counter and were told that AC suspended their tickets without also being provided with a reason. Furthermore, the email exchange between the complainants and AC seems to drill into the specifics of the day at LIS. This is what the Torstar said; ……..the email said, noting that the airline “cannot guarantee that this will not happen again.” With the AC email having very specific responses to the credit card fraud check I imagine that this fraud check was the source of the suspension and that the complainants knew of the specific reason for the ticket suspension during the initial checkin process.
2) TP appears to take an interest in credit card verification as part of their checkin process. There are other instances where TP invokes this credit card verification. While I share the opinion of others that TP should have no interest in credit card presentation at the check in counter, the checkin procedures are the sole purview of TP. AC or any other airline or international regulator cannot change TP policies or TP application of their policies. Therefore I believe that AC needs to have a recovery process that contemplates putting pax on alternate transportation when these instances occur.
3) IMHO, there are several possibilities A) the TP agents tossed AC under the bus either through their own customer service scripts or through attempting to explain TP SOP to the customers b) The complainant or the journalists are simplifying the story for length and readability; C) Language issues between the agents in LIS and the complainants.
4) Both the CBC and Torstar articles mention the pax got home the next day by purchasing a second ticket on AC. There is no AC ticket counter in LIS during the winter season. Therefore the only way for the travelers to purchase a second ticket for the one way journey home is to purchase online or via phone.
5) I’m not saying the complainant is a sleazy lawyer, just saying that the lawyer is using his professional knowledge and experience to further his cause.
Outside of the topic at hand, I do a fair number of speaking opportunities at public hearings at the local, provincial, national, and corporate levels. The media are covering these events. The media is required to shrink stories for length and to reduce the topic content to a grade 4 to 6 level of understanding. One way I don’t get myself in the media is to present a complex story that cannot be explained to the average person who does not have in depth knowledge of the topic. In this instance the complainant is doing the reverse of my approach, simplifying the story in order to make it marketable to the mass media.
May 21, 2017, 10:56 am
#153
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Both the CBC and Torstar articles mention the pax got home the next day by purchasing a second ticket on AC. There is no AC ticket counter in LIS during the winter season. Therefore the only way for the travelers to purchase a second ticket for the one way journey home is to purchase online or via phone.
May 21, 2017, 10:59 am
#154
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Monetizing the fraudulent flight purchases is easy. This event occurred at WestJet in YVR some years ago:
- Purchase a ticket or series of tickets online using stolen credit cards.
- Convert the ticket to travel bank / MCO / etc.
- Sell the travel bank credit on Kijiji or other online seller to a third party for 50-75 cents on the dollar.
- Complete the above within 72 hours so the credit card fraud is not reported to the airline.
In the above instance the airline is out of pocket because the unsuspecting travel credit purchasers will expect the airline to honour their flights. Otherwise the pax go to the media claiming their vacation plans are ruined.
In the WS YVR instance, there were 48 fraud instances that occurred over a 72 hour period.
May 21, 2017, 11:23 am
#155
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(1) The complainants not having the card in LIS is the only reasonable explanation. I'm basing my theory on my professional knowledge after having the following professional experiences: PCI DSS QSA training on credit card fraud detection systems and payment card industry cyber security standards; Indepth knowledge of airline passenger sales and service systems including OpenSkies, SabreSonic, AC RES III, among others; knowledge of GDS systems like Sabre, Apollo, Amadeus; 10+ years top tier loyalty holder having travelled extensively in three continents.
My IT systems knowledge and payment card industry knowledge point to this being a TP computer system issue and not an AC system issue.
I don’t subscribe to the notion that the complainants arrived at the TP checkin counter and were told that AC suspended their tickets without also being provided with a reason. Furthermore, the email exchange between the complainants and AC seems to drill into the specifics of the day at LIS. This is what the Torstar said; ……..the email said, noting that the airline “cannot guarantee that this will not happen again.” With the AC email having very specific responses to the credit card fraud check I imagine that this fraud check was the source of the suspension and that the complainants knew of the specific reason for the ticket suspension during the initial checkin process.
2) TP appears to take an interest in credit card verification as part of their checkin process. There are other instances where TP invokes this credit card verification. While I share the opinion of others that TP should have no interest in credit card presentation at the check in counter, the checkin procedures are the sole purview of TP. AC or any other airline or international regulator cannot change TP policies or TP application of their policies. Therefore I believe that AC needs to have a recovery process that contemplates putting pax on alternate transportation when these instances occur.
3) IMHO, there are several possibilities A) the TP agents tossed AC under the bus either through their own customer service scripts or through attempting to explain TP SOP to the customers b) The complainant or the journalists are simplifying the story for length and readability; C) Language issues between the agents in LIS and the complainants.
4) Both the CBC and Torstar articles mention the pax got home the next day by purchasing a second ticket on AC. There is no AC ticket counter in LIS during the winter season. Therefore the only way for the travelers to purchase a second ticket for the one way journey home is to purchase online or via phone.
5) I’m not saying the complainant is a sleazy lawyer, just saying that the lawyer is using his professional knowledge and experience to further his cause.
Outside of the topic at hand, I do a fair number of speaking opportunities at public hearings at the local, provincial, national, and corporate levels. The media are covering these events. The media is required to shrink stories for length and to reduce the topic content to a grade 4 to 6 level of understanding. One way I don’t get myself in the media is to present a complex story that cannot be explained to the average person who does not have in depth knowledge of the topic. In this instance the complainant is doing the reverse of my approach, simplifying the story in order to make it marketable to the mass media.
My IT systems knowledge and payment card industry knowledge point to this being a TP computer system issue and not an AC system issue.
I don’t subscribe to the notion that the complainants arrived at the TP checkin counter and were told that AC suspended their tickets without also being provided with a reason. Furthermore, the email exchange between the complainants and AC seems to drill into the specifics of the day at LIS. This is what the Torstar said; ……..the email said, noting that the airline “cannot guarantee that this will not happen again.” With the AC email having very specific responses to the credit card fraud check I imagine that this fraud check was the source of the suspension and that the complainants knew of the specific reason for the ticket suspension during the initial checkin process.
2) TP appears to take an interest in credit card verification as part of their checkin process. There are other instances where TP invokes this credit card verification. While I share the opinion of others that TP should have no interest in credit card presentation at the check in counter, the checkin procedures are the sole purview of TP. AC or any other airline or international regulator cannot change TP policies or TP application of their policies. Therefore I believe that AC needs to have a recovery process that contemplates putting pax on alternate transportation when these instances occur.
3) IMHO, there are several possibilities A) the TP agents tossed AC under the bus either through their own customer service scripts or through attempting to explain TP SOP to the customers b) The complainant or the journalists are simplifying the story for length and readability; C) Language issues between the agents in LIS and the complainants.
4) Both the CBC and Torstar articles mention the pax got home the next day by purchasing a second ticket on AC. There is no AC ticket counter in LIS during the winter season. Therefore the only way for the travelers to purchase a second ticket for the one way journey home is to purchase online or via phone.
5) I’m not saying the complainant is a sleazy lawyer, just saying that the lawyer is using his professional knowledge and experience to further his cause.
Outside of the topic at hand, I do a fair number of speaking opportunities at public hearings at the local, provincial, national, and corporate levels. The media are covering these events. The media is required to shrink stories for length and to reduce the topic content to a grade 4 to 6 level of understanding. One way I don’t get myself in the media is to present a complex story that cannot be explained to the average person who does not have in depth knowledge of the topic. In this instance the complainant is doing the reverse of my approach, simplifying the story in order to make it marketable to the mass media.
It's okay when posters just outright disbelieve the story as reported, even when they imply underhanded motivations or the incompetence of journalism as justifications, but the discussion of possible other stories, that essentially replace the story meant to be commented on, is, as I've said before, just not very interesting.
May 21, 2017, 3:32 pm
#156
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3) IMHO, there are several possibilities A) the TP agents tossed AC under the bus either through their own customer service scripts or through attempting to explain TP SOP to the customers b) The complainant or the journalists are simplifying the story for length and readability; C) Language issues between the agents in LIS and the complainants.
4) Both the CBC and Torstar articles mention the pax got home the next day by purchasing a second ticket on AC. There is no AC ticket counter in LIS during the winter season. Therefore the only way for the travelers to purchase a second ticket for the one way journey home is to purchase online or via phone.
Buying in person with credit card at hand would not have raised alarm, and the ticket would have been issued on TP stock.
May 21, 2017, 3:55 pm
#157
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I am stunned by the number of 'experts' on this thread who are overthinking the problem and blaming the OP.
As someone who has flown thru LIS many times, the airport agents are mainly outsourced which can lead to its own series of missteps. Was the AC station manager involved at all? I have had situations with the agents there that took escalation before everything smoothed over, but rarely was English an issue.
My theory:
1. pax presents for check-in and the outsourced AC agents see notes from Corporate Security and perhaps a contact number (but the office is closed due to the time difference). If the agent(s) see the words 'ticket cancelled' or a reference to same, surely there must be a back-up referred to in the PNR such as accept payment again from cardholder, call AC directly at the Resource Desk, etc. I find this whole story odd, but AC is doing itself no favours either. Buying new tickets for $6K CAD is very odd to me.
As someone who has flown thru LIS many times, the airport agents are mainly outsourced which can lead to its own series of missteps. Was the AC station manager involved at all? I have had situations with the agents there that took escalation before everything smoothed over, but rarely was English an issue.
My theory:
1. pax presents for check-in and the outsourced AC agents see notes from Corporate Security and perhaps a contact number (but the office is closed due to the time difference). If the agent(s) see the words 'ticket cancelled' or a reference to same, surely there must be a back-up referred to in the PNR such as accept payment again from cardholder, call AC directly at the Resource Desk, etc. I find this whole story odd, but AC is doing itself no favours either. Buying new tickets for $6K CAD is very odd to me.
May 21, 2017, 5:39 pm
#158
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I am stunned by the number of 'experts' on this thread who are overthinking the problem and blaming the OP.
As someone who has flown thru LIS many times, the airport agents are mainly outsourced which can lead to its own series of missteps. Was the AC station manager involved at all? I have had situations with the agents there that took escalation before everything smoothed over, but rarely was English an issue.
My theory:
1. pax presents for check-in and the outsourced AC agents see notes from Corporate Security and perhaps a contact number (but the office is closed due to the time difference). If the agent(s) see the words 'ticket cancelled' or a reference to same, surely there must be a back-up referred to in the PNR such as accept payment again from cardholder, call AC directly at the Resource Desk, etc. I find this whole story odd, but AC is doing itself no favours either. Buying new tickets for $6K CAD is very odd to me.
As someone who has flown thru LIS many times, the airport agents are mainly outsourced which can lead to its own series of missteps. Was the AC station manager involved at all? I have had situations with the agents there that took escalation before everything smoothed over, but rarely was English an issue.
My theory:
1. pax presents for check-in and the outsourced AC agents see notes from Corporate Security and perhaps a contact number (but the office is closed due to the time difference). If the agent(s) see the words 'ticket cancelled' or a reference to same, surely there must be a back-up referred to in the PNR such as accept payment again from cardholder, call AC directly at the Resource Desk, etc. I find this whole story odd, but AC is doing itself no favours either. Buying new tickets for $6K CAD is very odd to me.
May 21, 2017, 6:04 pm
#159
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
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I just saw this post from Gary Leff VFTW:
"Travel agency debit memos are increasing and an apparent cause is an increase in credit card chargebacks. A working theory is that credit card EMV chips have shifted even more fraud online."
He links to a short but interesting piece. Can anyone guess if this has had any impact on AC ticket purchases?
"ARC investigates cause of 7% increase in agency debit memos"
May 20.2017
https://www.tnooz.com/article/arc-in...y-debit-memos/
"Travel agency debit memos are increasing and an apparent cause is an increase in credit card chargebacks. A working theory is that credit card EMV chips have shifted even more fraud online."
He links to a short but interesting piece. Can anyone guess if this has had any impact on AC ticket purchases?
"ARC investigates cause of 7% increase in agency debit memos"
May 20.2017
https://www.tnooz.com/article/arc-in...y-debit-memos/
Basically if put through a transaction in the US by swipe + signature that could have been done chip+pin card (EMV) and the consumer objects, it is automatically a charge back.
The reason this is a problem in the US is there are still many credit card terminals or POS systems around that can't handle PINs.
May 21, 2017, 6:11 pm
#161
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This is something that Canadian merchants went through 10-15 years ago and is just starting to hit the US. Not unique to travel agents that is a problem retail wide in the US.
Basically if put through a transaction in the US by swipe + signature that could have been done chip+pin card (EMV) and the consumer objects, it is automatically a charge back.
The reason this is a problem in the US is there are still many credit card terminals or POS systems around that can't handle PINs.
Basically if put through a transaction in the US by swipe + signature that could have been done chip+pin card (EMV) and the consumer objects, it is automatically a charge back.
The reason this is a problem in the US is there are still many credit card terminals or POS systems around that can't handle PINs.
It's not a technical problem.
May 21, 2017, 6:28 pm
#162
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And to segue yes I have an RDID wallet. I can't believe how many people don't. I know it works as I tried to tap my wallet with Presto and got a big line up behind me
May 21, 2017, 6:41 pm
#163
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But aren't PINs now required in some places? They're started to creep in from what I've seen. No idea what happens if you don't have or know your pin as I, on a Canadian card do. Though I use tap most of the time ($100-$200 limit normally) which I have not seen in the US.
And to segue yes I have an RDID wallet. I can't believe how many people don't. I know it works as I tried to tap my wallet with Presto and got a big line up behind me
And to segue yes I have an RDID wallet. I can't believe how many people don't. I know it works as I tried to tap my wallet with Presto and got a big line up behind me
If I put my US card in any terminal, it prints out a slip to sign. This causes a LOT of confusion in certain places. Like a small restaurant in Kingston, Ontario. The waitress was actually confused.
If I put my US card in a train station terminal in Europe, I am unable to purchase a ticket.
So are they required in "some" places? Yes. But in my experience, it's only European train kiosks. If you go the ticket counter, they make you sign.
Believe me, I am not SUPPORTING this crap. I want a PIN. It's not even an option. I almost missed a flight out of MUC because I couldn't buy the damn train ticket to get to the airport.
Anyway, I can fully understand why a CNP transaction would get extra scrutiny. Though if the ticket is in the cardholder's name, it shouldn't be that bad. The closest I've had to a "fraud" incident was booking two identical itineraries on AC, one day after the other (EYW), and one of the days had a schedule change. The person who called me asked if it was an accident.
I don't think I've ever booked a ticket for someone who didn't share my last name, but I've certainly booked tickets for people who have a different first name and live in a different country, and there has never been an issue.
May 21, 2017, 8:56 pm
#164
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I don't disagree US population has problems adapting to change (e.g., PIN, coin money etc.) but there are technology challenges as well.
