Smug airline overbooking policies.
May 4, 2017, 10:26 am
#31
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@ffsim another quote to address the contract of carriage issue.
"Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton, a Democrat from Washington, D.C., wanted to know why United Airlines has a 37,000-word contract of carriage, a document that describes the airline’s rights for each ticket. Other airlines have similar contracts, which, among other things, describe an airline’s rights to bump passengers.
Norton said she wondered why airlines can’t list policies on one page, in an easy-to-understand format. All the airlines agreed it could be done more simply."
... and the surcharges
"When oil prices spiked in 2008, most U.S. airlines started charging fees for checked luggage. The carriers, led by American, said they had to recoup their increased costs.
But fuel is cheaper now, and in 2016, according to data released Tuesday, U.S. airlines made a combined $13.5 billion in after tax-profit. With business strong, some lawmakers asked why airlines still charge for checked luggage. According to the government, airlines earned $4.2 billion in baggage fees last year." "But with one exception — Southwest, again — airline executives said they’re not interested in free bags.""At Southwest, however, Jordan said not having bag fees makes the most sense. “We try to make policies that just make sense for the customer,” he said. “We feel like if you are going to travel it makes sense that you can bring your clothes along.”
"Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton, a Democrat from Washington, D.C., wanted to know why United Airlines has a 37,000-word contract of carriage, a document that describes the airline’s rights for each ticket. Other airlines have similar contracts, which, among other things, describe an airline’s rights to bump passengers.
Norton said she wondered why airlines can’t list policies on one page, in an easy-to-understand format. All the airlines agreed it could be done more simply."
... and the surcharges
"When oil prices spiked in 2008, most U.S. airlines started charging fees for checked luggage. The carriers, led by American, said they had to recoup their increased costs.
But fuel is cheaper now, and in 2016, according to data released Tuesday, U.S. airlines made a combined $13.5 billion in after tax-profit. With business strong, some lawmakers asked why airlines still charge for checked luggage. According to the government, airlines earned $4.2 billion in baggage fees last year." "But with one exception — Southwest, again — airline executives said they’re not interested in free bags.""At Southwest, however, Jordan said not having bag fees makes the most sense. “We try to make policies that just make sense for the customer,” he said. “We feel like if you are going to travel it makes sense that you can bring your clothes along.”
Last edited by Northern Canuck; May 4, 2017 at 10:38 am Reason: correction, thanks ffI
May 4, 2017, 10:30 am
#32
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Now that the congressional committee has asked for a clear, concise contract of carriage as well as for the airlines in the US to clean up their act and start providing some customer service, we'll see if our gov't, CTA and AC follows suit.
"Several representatives criticized the airlines’ lengthy contracts of carriage, and Rep. Peter A. DeFazio (D-Ore.) held up a thick stack of pages that made up airlines’ terms and conditions.
“We need simple language, disclosure and transparency in these contracts of carriage.” he said.
Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia’s delegate to the House, challenged the airlines to boil down customers’ rights in those contracts to a one-page document.
When executives from Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines and American Airlines said they would strive to make simpler and shorter contracts, Norton said, “We’re going to hold you all accountable for that.”
The grilling didn't stop with that...
"The airlines’ 2016 revenue of $168.2 billion included $4.2 billion from baggage fees and $2.9 billion from reservation change fees. In 2015, revenue was $169 billion, including $3.8 billion from baggage fees and $3 billion from reservation change fees."
"Representatives warned the airlines that if customer service did not improve, they could be subjected to a “one-size-fits-all” regulatory policy. Of course they also discussed the IDB problem.
“Seize this opportunity,” said Rep. Bill Shuster (R-Pa.), committee chairman. “Because if you don’t, we’re going to come and you’re not going to like it."
We'll see what our government comes up with.
"Several representatives criticized the airlines’ lengthy contracts of carriage, and Rep. Peter A. DeFazio (D-Ore.) held up a thick stack of pages that made up airlines’ terms and conditions.
“We need simple language, disclosure and transparency in these contracts of carriage.” he said.
Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia’s delegate to the House, challenged the airlines to boil down customers’ rights in those contracts to a one-page document.
When executives from Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines and American Airlines said they would strive to make simpler and shorter contracts, Norton said, “We’re going to hold you all accountable for that.”
The grilling didn't stop with that...
"The airlines’ 2016 revenue of $168.2 billion included $4.2 billion from baggage fees and $2.9 billion from reservation change fees. In 2015, revenue was $169 billion, including $3.8 billion from baggage fees and $3 billion from reservation change fees."
"Representatives warned the airlines that if customer service did not improve, they could be subjected to a “one-size-fits-all” regulatory policy. Of course they also discussed the IDB problem.
“Seize this opportunity,” said Rep. Bill Shuster (R-Pa.), committee chairman. “Because if you don’t, we’re going to come and you’re not going to like it."
We'll see what our government comes up with.
Something like "The ticket you are purchasing DOES NOT guarantee you a seat on the flight you have booked. Or on any flight. If, for operational reasons, we determine that we need to delay, reschedule or even cancel your reservation, or any portion of it, we will work with you to find a solution, within the limits of our legal obligations. We highly recommend you fully understand these obligations BEFORE purchasing your ticket. But under no circumstance should you consider the purchase of a ticket on any AC flight as an assurance that you will arrive at your chosen destination on the flight or at the time you are booking. Please check the box to indicate you agree with these fundamental conditions of purchasing a ticket on any AC flight. "
May 4, 2017, 10:32 am
#34
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Article is absolutely correct. CBC has been fantastic about shining the light on Air Canada.
My one takeaway (yes I am an American who lived in Canada for 2 stints, 7 years total) about Air Canada is they are letting the side down. Canada has a lot to be thankful and proud of. I loved my time in Vancouver (Winnipeg, it was good too), my daughter was born there. But Canadians seem to have this pack mentality when it comes to Air Canada.
If you are Canadian you can be critical. If you are Canadian you have to rally around the Canadian company and vote for them in the Freddie awards. The only reason AC has any sort of customer service recognition is Canadians voting for a Canadian company.
I have had some good flights with AC. However I have also had some bad ones. Same with US airlines. However the lack of empathy, the complete dearth of employee's ability to make a common sense decision, the rude GA's, the rude FA's, the abysmal management.............AC is letting Canada down.
I for one, am glad the CBC is taking them to task. Most of these articles are enlightening the 97% of readers who are not on flyertalk and are not big on Aeroplan miles and frequent flyer programs. These are the people who are getting stranded for four days trying to get to Saskatoon, missing trip of the lifetimes in South America, missing their dogs who was abandoned by AC employees and found loose roaming around the airport.
These articles are educating the 97% of Canadians who fly infrequently about the shoddy business that is AC
My one takeaway (yes I am an American who lived in Canada for 2 stints, 7 years total) about Air Canada is they are letting the side down. Canada has a lot to be thankful and proud of. I loved my time in Vancouver (Winnipeg, it was good too), my daughter was born there. But Canadians seem to have this pack mentality when it comes to Air Canada.
If you are Canadian you can be critical. If you are Canadian you have to rally around the Canadian company and vote for them in the Freddie awards. The only reason AC has any sort of customer service recognition is Canadians voting for a Canadian company.
I have had some good flights with AC. However I have also had some bad ones. Same with US airlines. However the lack of empathy, the complete dearth of employee's ability to make a common sense decision, the rude GA's, the rude FA's, the abysmal management.............AC is letting Canada down.
I for one, am glad the CBC is taking them to task. Most of these articles are enlightening the 97% of readers who are not on flyertalk and are not big on Aeroplan miles and frequent flyer programs. These are the people who are getting stranded for four days trying to get to Saskatoon, missing trip of the lifetimes in South America, missing their dogs who was abandoned by AC employees and found loose roaming around the airport.
These articles are educating the 97% of Canadians who fly infrequently about the shoddy business that is AC
Last edited by tcook052; May 4, 2017 at 2:06 pm Reason: content
May 4, 2017, 11:02 am
#35
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Hear hear. The knee jerk reaction to defend all things Canadian ( even when to any outsider they are clearly flawed ) is a very Canadian attribute IME ( I say that as a naturalized Canadian citizen resident here for over 30 years). For example, I work in health care. There are many things that are very good about Canadian health care but there are many that are clearly very bad. We are unable to ever address this and improve because the Canadian Health System Good, Everywhere Else Bad mindset is the default position in every single discussion.
May 4, 2017, 11:46 am
#36
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The whole point of Joe Canadian pulling out his credit card and buying an airline ticket is because he intends to fly. He's booked vacation time which was scheduled around breaks in his kids' activities and coordinated with his wife/girlfriend/mistress. He wants to be where the plane will take him.
I like yulred's "smell test" comment. He's right... I imagine you'll have far greater outcry from far more people if a message like that became the default pre-purchase message versus the smaller outcry from people actually affected by overbookings.
May 4, 2017, 12:37 pm
#37
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Hear hear. The knee jerk reaction to defend all things Canadian ( even when to any outsider they are clearly flawed ) is a very Canadian attribute IME ( I say that as a naturalized Canadian citizen resident here for over 30 years). For example, I work in health care. There are many things that are very good about Canadian health care but there are many that are clearly very bad. We are unable to ever address this and improve because the Canadian Health System Good, Everywhere Else Bad mindset is the default position in every single discussion.
There is that, sure.
But there is also the reverse. There will be people complaining systematically about health care, and same about AC. When often reality is in the middle. Or, that the value you get depends upon your ability of making good use of what you have at your avail.
I feel I get good value from aC. Not perfect, sometimes irritating. Food in J sucks. But it remains better than the alternatives. Unfortunately they know...
Same about health. If it were not for the crucial apect that Canadian health puts a strong emphasis on prevention, I would likely not be alive today. Still on the positive side, my wife was diagnosed in the early eighties with a not so uncommon condition with a genetic aspect to it within a year of when crucial links and the genetic aspects were discovered. On the negative side, she had to wait too long for hip replacement surgery. She was lucky that her surgeon was one of the first in Canada to do the anterior procedure. Which on the minus side, is probably routine most elsewhere.
May 4, 2017, 1:02 pm
#38
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I agree 100%. I guess my comment relates to perceptions, because after all that's a large part of the discussion. My perception is that there is a degree of corporate smugness from AC, which manifests itself as we don't need to really change because passenger counts are up and we are the only 4* airline in N America. The problem is, IMHO, that a significant boost in the Skytrax ratings comes from the tendency to support Canadian identified by The smallest state, rather than because they are actually that good.
The problem that then arises is that if you have that blinkered perspective then it isn't possible to have the frank discussion really needed to fix a problem, whether it be health care or AC. You have to be willing to acknowledge there is problem and ,as many posts here confirm, that willingness just isn't there. Blaming "Stupid Passengers" is a pretty easy cop out, except that when it happens again and again and again, maybe it's time to take some blame too.
The problem that then arises is that if you have that blinkered perspective then it isn't possible to have the frank discussion really needed to fix a problem, whether it be health care or AC. You have to be willing to acknowledge there is problem and ,as many posts here confirm, that willingness just isn't there. Blaming "Stupid Passengers" is a pretty easy cop out, except that when it happens again and again and again, maybe it's time to take some blame too.
May 4, 2017, 1:10 pm
#40
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Because accordingly to many posts, WS does NOT overbook so alternatives do exist to AC who is widely known to undertake this revenue management practice.
I must admit Canadians can thank CBC for wide coverage so is OB really hidden from even in-frequent domestic travelers?
You get what you pay for...and your post admits that air travel is pretty expensive...so shouldn't consumers do their homework when plunking down big hard-earned bucks? and maybe they should be using travel agents again...who can explain the limitations of AC purchases...but then might have to pay bit extra for this advice...
I must admit Canadians can thank CBC for wide coverage so is OB really hidden from even in-frequent domestic travelers?
You get what you pay for...and your post admits that air travel is pretty expensive...so shouldn't consumers do their homework when plunking down big hard-earned bucks? and maybe they should be using travel agents again...who can explain the limitations of AC purchases...but then might have to pay bit extra for this advice...
People do research for expensive things? Important things? Then why is the Prudential ad saying people spend more time planning vacations than their retirement.
May 4, 2017, 1:55 pm
#41
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No one complains about the latter.
May 4, 2017, 2:15 pm
#42
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Airlines that consistently avoid overbooking seem to have another downside that will probably draw just as much criticism in the media: no flat-tire rule/policy/discretion.
If you miss your flight by a minute, without overbooking the odds are quite high that the seat will go empty. I have seen US carriers Jetblue, Spirit, and Frontier make you buy a brand new ticket. Zero sympathy from them.
I've seen this result in many police incidents at the ticket counters, and would-be passegers in tears. Folks scared that they will be fired because they have no cash and have to call work to book them on a second paid flight back from a conference, etc.
In contrast, the carriers that do overbook tend to reaccomodate, with free standby or even confirmed travel on the next later flight. I believe AC reaccomodates if even a no-status passenger presents themselves at the airport shortly after missing a flight.
If I had to pick the better system it'd be the IDB/VDB system. It's a safe bet that people 'blindsighted' by IDB or told they may not get a seat because they are late to check-in will not make the same mistake twice. Experince a stressful situation exactly once, and become a better traveler for life.
If you miss your flight by a minute, without overbooking the odds are quite high that the seat will go empty. I have seen US carriers Jetblue, Spirit, and Frontier make you buy a brand new ticket. Zero sympathy from them.
I've seen this result in many police incidents at the ticket counters, and would-be passegers in tears. Folks scared that they will be fired because they have no cash and have to call work to book them on a second paid flight back from a conference, etc.
In contrast, the carriers that do overbook tend to reaccomodate, with free standby or even confirmed travel on the next later flight. I believe AC reaccomodates if even a no-status passenger presents themselves at the airport shortly after missing a flight.
If I had to pick the better system it'd be the IDB/VDB system. It's a safe bet that people 'blindsighted' by IDB or told they may not get a seat because they are late to check-in will not make the same mistake twice. Experince a stressful situation exactly once, and become a better traveler for life.
May 4, 2017, 2:48 pm
#43
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Interesting conjecture but speculative, and I could find NO recent decision in Federal Court that would support supposition of mutual requirement for refund, at least in aviation sector.
Therefore, standing CTA decisions are all that we have to go by, thus, in examining the two cases of travel bans in past three years, AC choose to refund payment, but this was NOT compelled by CTA. Whether AC views the refund as a matter of contract, or whether best to get rid of the payment that could attract further acrimony, this is unknown from the written decision.
However, in the case of a travel ban, logically, curious how federal court could refuse AC to issue a unilateral refund that also involves cancelling the contract for future travel, when the Tariff (sec 25) permits permanent denial of travel for reasonable cause.
ultimately, would take somebody with incredibly deep pockets to test the rationale for all these provisions. Plus, unless the traveler actually had IDB occur to them, or other supposed contract failings which are routinely floated in various threads, would such a challenge even have standing?
But of course we have the FT court, where adjudications are made all the time
Therefore, standing CTA decisions are all that we have to go by, thus, in examining the two cases of travel bans in past three years, AC choose to refund payment, but this was NOT compelled by CTA. Whether AC views the refund as a matter of contract, or whether best to get rid of the payment that could attract further acrimony, this is unknown from the written decision.
However, in the case of a travel ban, logically, curious how federal court could refuse AC to issue a unilateral refund that also involves cancelling the contract for future travel, when the Tariff (sec 25) permits permanent denial of travel for reasonable cause.
ultimately, would take somebody with incredibly deep pockets to test the rationale for all these provisions. Plus, unless the traveler actually had IDB occur to them, or other supposed contract failings which are routinely floated in various threads, would such a challenge even have standing?
But of course we have the FT court, where adjudications are made all the time
May 4, 2017, 2:51 pm
#44
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Airlines that consistently avoid overbooking seem to have another downside that will probably draw just as much criticism in the media: no flat-tire rule/policy/discretion.
If you miss your flight by a minute, without overbooking the odds are quite high that the seat will go empty. I have seen US carriers Jetblue, Spirit, and Frontier make you buy a brand new ticket. Zero sympathy from them.
I've seen this result in many police incidents at the ticket counters, and would-be passegers in tears. Folks scared that they will be fired because they have no cash and have to call work to book them on a second paid flight back from a conference, etc.
In contrast, the carriers that do overbook tend to reaccomodate, with free standby or even confirmed travel on the next later flight. I believe AC reaccomodates if even a no-status passenger presents themselves at the airport shortly after missing a flight.
If I had to pick the better system it'd be the IDB/VDB system. It's a safe bet that people 'blindsighted' by IDB or told they may not get a seat because they are late to check-in will not make the same mistake twice. Experince a stressful situation exactly once, and become a better traveler for life.
If you miss your flight by a minute, without overbooking the odds are quite high that the seat will go empty. I have seen US carriers Jetblue, Spirit, and Frontier make you buy a brand new ticket. Zero sympathy from them.
I've seen this result in many police incidents at the ticket counters, and would-be passegers in tears. Folks scared that they will be fired because they have no cash and have to call work to book them on a second paid flight back from a conference, etc.
In contrast, the carriers that do overbook tend to reaccomodate, with free standby or even confirmed travel on the next later flight. I believe AC reaccomodates if even a no-status passenger presents themselves at the airport shortly after missing a flight.
If I had to pick the better system it'd be the IDB/VDB system. It's a safe bet that people 'blindsighted' by IDB or told they may not get a seat because they are late to check-in will not make the same mistake twice. Experince a stressful situation exactly once, and become a better traveler for life.
You cannot lump Spirit and Frontier cause they truly care naught about the customer nor fear bad publicity.
You also left out Southwest. Why?
May 4, 2017, 3:30 pm
#45
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I left them out because they are in the midst of changing their policies.
Southwest has overbooked since it began operating, but agents have an actual published internal flat-tire 2hr rule, to rebook missed flights for free.
They have publically announced they will stop overbooking this year... Rumors have it they will eliminate the flat-tire 'rule', and instead give their employees discretion to rebook or charge.
I can see them charging the folks that yell at the agent when it was really their fault for being at the bar instead of listening to boarding announcements, but letting the family who legitimately got caught in traffic or was delayed by a restroom stop standby for the next flight for free.
Southwest has overbooked since it began operating, but agents have an actual published internal flat-tire 2hr rule, to rebook missed flights for free.
They have publically announced they will stop overbooking this year... Rumors have it they will eliminate the flat-tire 'rule', and instead give their employees discretion to rebook or charge.
I can see them charging the folks that yell at the agent when it was really their fault for being at the bar instead of listening to boarding announcements, but letting the family who legitimately got caught in traffic or was delayed by a restroom stop standby for the next flight for free.
Last edited by expert7700; May 4, 2017 at 3:36 pm
