YYT82

The answer is never. The Tariffs does not guarantee immunity from bumping. For circumstances outside of the airlines' control, they don't even legally need to offer compensation, although they sometimes do. For circumstances within the airlines' control, the higher the fare paid, the less the likelihood of being bumped. I would love to be in a situation where I am booked in J, and they're short one seat, and I take the VDB and they can only confirm me in Y on the next available flight because J is booked to capacity. In that case, I get the VDB money plus the downgrade.

canadiancow

You can't buy immunity, but they take a couple things into account:

1. Status
2. Fare class
3. Check-in time
4. Whether you have a seat assignment
5. Onward connections
6. General "hardship" (UM, disabilities, etc.)

Not in that order.

I suspect #4 is going to be the first thing they look at, though if the only GTE is SE, they'll probably start looking at other people.

#4 can be bought, and is a pretty solid way to prevent being bumped.
#2 can be bought.
#3 is free, and can help you achieve #4 for free.

This all seems like a pretty manual process, so things don't always go according to plan, so I'd advise saying "I'm 15", "I'm SE", or "I'm connecting to Frankfurt" (whichever is true), to get the GA to take a second look.

But if you buy a seat assignment, you're going to be safe from 99.9% of IDB situations.

songsc

First of all, this is a very nice discussion. I have to go back to look my econ textbook and actually doing some calculation on paper. Thanks for the opportunity to refresh my knowledge ^

Before doing any calculation, let's look at the purpose of overbooking. It is used like a hedging tool. Not all flights between YYZ and YVR have the same load factor. Suppose AC103 in the morning is oversold, but AC101 around noon has seats left. The purpose of overselling is to transfer some passenger on AC103 to AC101. In other words, the difference in revenue should not be looked at on a per flight basis, therefore I don't agree with the part in bold.

Let's use the example you mentioned:
A Latitude ticket for YYZ-YVR costs $1500
A Tango ticket for YYZ-YVR costs $250
The IDB cost is $750
The possibility of IDB is 0.09%

With overselling, a passenger willing to pay $1500 will get a seat on AC103, while the Tango passenger has a 0.09% chance of taking $750 from IDB then fly on AC101. The revenue in this case is $1500 + $250 - $750 * 0.0009 = $1749.325.

Without overselling, the passenger willing to pay $1500 can not buy a ticket on AC103. The only revenue in this case is $250. Note that the passenger willing to pay $1500 will not pay the same for the next available AC flight, as time is critical for this passenger.

Therefore, under the IDB rate of 0.09%, the additional revenue per one overbooked ticket is $1499.325.

I think from this calculation it is clear why airlines overbook so much. I don't know how many ticket AC over sells, but the number translates to $5 per overbooked ticket on a 773.

songsc

Exactly. WS's claim of not overselling has no real meaning. The real comparison should be the probability of VDB/IDB. WS does not match AC's price, WS only matches AC's lowest price. WS only serves AC's Tango markets.

kalderlake

It's a contract.

What are the terms of the contract?

I wasn't really that aware of the possibility of being bumped.

My fault, I guess, for never reading the small print.

What I'm taking away from this thread, as someone who purchases lower fare bucket tickets almost exclusively, is to build in some buffers, particularly if I'm connecting on separate tickets.

One thing I will note is that I just booked a Y ticket with ANA, and along with the e-ticket, they e-mailed me a separate NOTICE OF OVERBOOKING notifying me of the possibility.

Not a bad idea.

Sopwith

If we're going to allow airlines to continue the practice of overbooking, how about we insist that they tell the truth when a customer buys a ticket. This means giving them the straight goods in an obvious and forthright way:

"By clicking the button below you will complete your purchase. Be aware that what you are purchasing is not a ticket for travel on a particular flight. It is in fact a lottery ticket, which renders you eligible to win an opportunity to travel on the flight described above.

At the conclusion of your purchase we will send you a five page email with details of the flight you think you're buying. The first two pages will contain details of the flight described above, the cost, the date, time, and in some cases the selected seat. The only information on those two pages that is factual is the amount we will charge to your credit card. Everything else you see is hypothetical pending the outcome of the lottery. We also draw your attention to Item No. 11 in the fine print, which is buried at the very bottom of page 5. That clause describes our nefarious practice of overbooking, and is also factual

Rest assured, however, that the odds of winning the lottery are quite high, but they are not 100%. You can increase your chances of winning by any of the following:

1. Purchase a higher fare class than the one you have currently selected. This will cost you more money than we have heretofore led you to believe.

2. Fly enough to gain Altitude status. [Link to Altitude web site].

3. Check in as early as possible.

Finally, if you have agreed to pay an extra fee to select a seat, be aware that you have not actually selected a seat. What you have done is suggested a seating preference, which, if it suits our operational convenience, we will endeavour to fulfill.

Good luck!"

canadiancow

Has this ever been challenged in a Canadian court?

You pay money for X, and the airline, at the last minute, substitutes Y.

Just because you put something in a contract doesn't make it legal or binding.

A bunch of the terms in most business to consumer contracts are there to make you think you can't sue them.

That's why they all have the clause "if one section of this contract is struck down in court, the rest of it will remain valid". They know a bunch of it is simply not enforceable.

24left

Reminds me of your epic post...and the section "BOARDING (OR NOT)"

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-c...n-english.html

eigenvector

@songsc

Thanks for your detailed response. Since it is fairly long I haven't quoted it. I agree in principle with your example and your reasoning. Let's agree the forgone revenue due to overbooking is around the $5/ticket you stated. In my view, the problem is that a passenger who knows they MUST fly and is potentially willing to pay for that, does not have a clear way to avoid being bumped. The revenue acquired by the airline through this practice is relatively small, but in order to reduce the chance of being bumped the passenger has no clear options. They cannot simply say, "ok, I will pay that $5 or $6 extra and not be part of this revenue maximisation scheme". They do have some options - like buying a seat reservation - but AC's fine print makes it pretty explicit that this is only a reservation and isn't guaranteed. Furthermore, nothing in AC's customer-facing literature suggests this course of action for people who don't want to be subject to bumping.

We, the AC FTers, know the various criteria that affect IDB priority, as posted by canadiancow. How deep in the tariff is this information buried? Does an infrequent flyer have any reasonable hope of getting this information? Does AC have suitable product offerings such that people who don't want to be bumped can reasonably buy their way out of that scenario without spending a (relative) ton of extra money on a Flex ticket?

Looking at history, AC didn't offer reasonable compensation for IDB until forced to by the government. So I would say there is little hope of addressing the questions above unless the government again gets involved.

canadiancow

I'd also like to point out that what I posted was what I recall, because I didn't feel like digging that deep

But the contract is irrelevant.

The GA is likely going to do what's easiest for the GA.

1. Call for volunteers. Hopefully get the required number.
2. Tell the GTEs they can't board.

Make it easier on yourself. Select a seat.

skybluesea

do not understand reference to rich/poor?

Rich don't fly commercial and poor don't fly at all.

this is middle class problem like NOT finding a free coffee under a Timmie's rim.

and for nonsense about binding "contracts" - the tariff provides plenty of exceptions that are also binding.

I had no love for Air Canada after bumping spouse and I, but they did compensate per what was required, so I have NO further complaint otherwise could have refused compensation and gone full complaint route.

I suppose I'm contributing to the traffic jamb - gawking at a minor road accident on the road side.

songsc

The rich and poor thing was referring to smallmj's quote below:

YYT82

Prior to mandatory IDB compensation regulations raising the amount to $800 for 6+ hours, I was paying ~$1050 RT taxes in for YYC/YEG-YYT in Flex G. After the regulations were introduced, that amount immediately became ~$1160 in the same Flex G fare and recently as high as $1260 (although the recent rise in price can be attributed to other factors). No one can convince me AC didn't price in the added compensation in the fares. I fly on a weekly basis so my sample points for these price variations are far more frequent than the average Tangoer.

songsc

I think the airlines do have the responsibility to warn passengers the risk of IDB. On the other hand, passengers or consumers in general do need to educate themselves a bit so that they understand how businesses work, that will benefit themselves. Remember the ESP/Praxis course we took in first year? And how hard we got penalized for following "common sense" rather than looking up the facts? Now I look back and realized that was probably the most important lesson from university.

stevendorechester

Perhaps I didn' t say it right. Compensation shouldn't y be zero, quite the opposite:

First off all, according to this and other stories I have heard about overbooking, Air Canada seems to be bumping people at check-in, a clear violation of Transport Canada rules ( which, by the way should apply to any Canadian airlines anywhere in the world as is the case with the EU with some exceptions). There needs to be a crackdown on this with dire consequences to both the airline as well as well as the person doing the bumping in this matter.

Air Canada is supposed to request volunteers before any IDB; this is where they should be required to get volunteers at any cost by either letting the passenger set the price for the airline to buy the space back, or by the airline making an offer at the gate and increasing that offer until somebody bites. That's how the free market works. Only in very rare cases should the compensation be set ( or none at all in security situations). It doesn' t have to be cash, it can be free business class tickets anywhere in the world, miles, bumping up one status level, whatever is agreed upon. That' s how the free market works; airlines decide how much they charge for that space, they shouldn' t get to decide how much they give to give it back. I doubt fares would increase as there is plenty of competition out there already.

I' ve been very well treated in this matter myself. A couple of years ago I was going YUL-YVR-PEK booked in V class and they needed to offload people from the YUL-YVR flight, not due to overbooking but because they had a full cargo load. The money offered wasn't that good but they also offered re-booking in J class on the next flight. I told them I wasn' t in a hurry, got them to pay for my hotel and re-booking YUL-YYZ-PEK all in J and full J miles in my AP account. When they do it like this, everybody wins.