Last edit by: eracerblue
In all likelihood, airlines may be nervous about dealing with this issue firsthand. In lieu of this, perhaps we can formulate a step by step guide for pax significantly bothered by a dog, similar to how people choose to confront pax not using headphones, etc. THIS IS A DRAFT, OPEN FOR ALTERATION (NOT SUGGESTED FOR USE AT THIS TIME).
Pax procedure:
There's likely poor training for staff on this issue. A staff process should be something like:
1. Dog comes in off leash, or pax not holding harness
a. Is your dog required because of a disability? If yes, What work is it trained to perform?
b. Given satisfactory answers, but unsatisfactory appearance (no vest/harness) or behaviour of dog, lightly inform pax that authorities have been called in prior instances if the animal acts in untrained manner (eg wandering around the lounge). It is a public area, and the dog must remain "on duty".
c. In addition a service animal would have been registered ahead of time and would be indicated on the BP/ticket remarks. If it's not, then it's not a service animal and should never be off leash or harness.
2. Dog comes in on leash/harness
Same as above, though obviously can add the: should remain on leash bit.
3. Dog comes in in carry-on kennel
a. "That's a cute pet you have! Just so you know, our policy is X" (which requires your pet to stay in its kennel while in the food area, whatever)
b. Pax says it's an emotional support dog. "In that case, while outside of the cafeteria area, you can have it on leash or on your lap. But if it's wandering around you may be asked to leave.
And in the cases where there's an issue with a claimed service animal:
a. Check BP/ticket remarks
b. Remind pax that dog must remain on duty/in carrier etc as appropriate
c. Inform/remind pax that it is an offence to pass as a service dog
d. Call authorities
Or something like that. Pretty basic stuff.... although maybemployees thought they'd only be interacting with the well behaved pax?
Pax procedure:
1. Sees an unruly dog, suspecting it is not a real ESA or service animal
2. "Hi, cute dog you have there, is he a service animal?"
3a. "Cool an ESA - just so you know, ESA's really aren't permitted off leash or out of kennel unless beside you or on your lap, as it defeats the purpose. Even service dogs don't get to wander. I know you're legit, but I have a friend with an ESA and they say how people overstepping their rights make everyone look bad." Ask to see their BP if you're ballsy, which would generally say MEDA, not PETC.
3b. "Cool - service animals are expected to remain 'on duty', and it seems he may not be"
4. "I understand, but the only reason a service animal should be off leash and away from handler is because you are having an episode and he's going for help. You probably don't want someone calling emergency services unnecessarily." FYI This BP may say MEDA, maybe nothing.
5. Politely remove yourself.
6. If situation persists, inform MLL staff.
7. If you feel confident the dog is being masqueraded as a service dog, and you feel empowered for someone to have a very bad day, find the airport's non-emergency police line...
.
.
ALTERNATIVE PAX PROCEDURE:
1. "Hi, are you okay???!!"
2. "I was really worried and I have called emergency services. In <insert your state/province> the only reason a service animal of any type would be away from their owner is if they were trying to call for help. Are you sure you're ok?"
There's likely poor training for staff on this issue. A staff process should be something like:
1. Dog comes in off leash, or pax not holding harness
a. Is your dog required because of a disability? If yes, What work is it trained to perform?
b. Given satisfactory answers, but unsatisfactory appearance (no vest/harness) or behaviour of dog, lightly inform pax that authorities have been called in prior instances if the animal acts in untrained manner (eg wandering around the lounge). It is a public area, and the dog must remain "on duty".
c. In addition a service animal would have been registered ahead of time and would be indicated on the BP/ticket remarks. If it's not, then it's not a service animal and should never be off leash or harness.
2. Dog comes in on leash/harness
Same as above, though obviously can add the: should remain on leash bit.
3. Dog comes in in carry-on kennel
a. "That's a cute pet you have! Just so you know, our policy is X" (which requires your pet to stay in its kennel while in the food area, whatever)
b. Pax says it's an emotional support dog. "In that case, while outside of the cafeteria area, you can have it on leash or on your lap. But if it's wandering around you may be asked to leave.
And in the cases where there's an issue with a claimed service animal:
a. Check BP/ticket remarks
b. Remind pax that dog must remain on duty/in carrier etc as appropriate
c. Inform/remind pax that it is an offence to pass as a service dog
d. Call authorities
Or something like that. Pretty basic stuff.... although maybemployees thought they'd only be interacting with the well behaved pax?
Fake service dogs on board AC flight?
#106
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,186
If the animal is misbehaving, then that suggests it doesn't have service animal training, which it probably should. But that doesn't mean it isn't helping someone with a real issue.
I hate annoying animals just as much as anyone else, but the solution isn't "ban all ESAs".
#107
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson
Posts: 35,232
Frankly, dont' care. (How dare I not care!) (How dare I post here if I dare to not care!)
Just clarifying what I believed what 24left meant in response to our post.
Please do carry-on with the debate.
#108
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 336
I wasn't saying anything. I was trying to get clarity on cow's response to 24left. (whether I misinterpreted 24left or cow is another thing)
However, if one chooses to insult those with ESA needs, I'm not sure if that violates FT TOC? If it does, then a majority of this thread should be thrown out.
However, if one chooses to insult those with ESA needs, I'm not sure if that violates FT TOC? If it does, then a majority of this thread should be thrown out.
Back to the topic of the thread (which maybe should be "fake service dogs on board or in lounges"), in attempt for this thread to break out of going in circles, I created a wiki post on some ideas of how to deal with it. Please modify, and create your own...
Perhaps if we call emergency personnel enough times to help people "deal with their medical emergencies that their service dog was alerting us to", then offending pax and AC will actually start to act on the issue.
#109
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
If someone in this thread or on this forum does not understand one of my posts, you are all free to ask about it.
There are many here who know me, and perhaps they understand my point.
I know a military veteran who was wounded and travels with a companion animal, so I understand the value of an ESA.
I will not, however, back down from the well-know views that many people are abusing the ESA designation, and people brag about the fake vests and certification they are able to get.
AC may have defined rules or policies regarding service animals. I don't think AC or any other airline are equipped to handle the increasing number of people who a cheating or lying because they want to travel with their pets in the cabin, and this has become the way to do it.
.
There are many here who know me, and perhaps they understand my point.
I know a military veteran who was wounded and travels with a companion animal, so I understand the value of an ESA.
I will not, however, back down from the well-know views that many people are abusing the ESA designation, and people brag about the fake vests and certification they are able to get.
AC may have defined rules or policies regarding service animals. I don't think AC or any other airline are equipped to handle the increasing number of people who a cheating or lying because they want to travel with their pets in the cabin, and this has become the way to do it.
.
Last edited by 24left; Jan 16, 2018 at 10:03 pm Reason: spelling
#110
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,685
AC may have defined rules or policies regarding service animals. I don't think AC or any other airline are equipped to handle the increasing number of people who a cheating or lying because they want to travel with their pets in the cabin, and this has become the way to do it.
.
.
#111
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,685
1. Have no clue about US law
2. Have an opinion that Canadian law applies
Instead of posting here about things that you don't know, it might be worth your time to go educate yourself on the topic. AC's policies are freely available and show their reference to the specific US law. You can also find all of the information on what law applies online. That would save you from making statements that you've already said aren't accurate.
#112
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson
Posts: 35,232
FYI, you just admitting that you
1. Have no clue about US law
2. Have an opinion that Canadian law applies
Instead of posting here about things that you don't know, it might be worth your time to go educate yourself on the topic. AC's policies are freely available and show their reference to the specific US law. You can also find all of the information on what law applies online. That would save you from making statements that you've already said aren't accurate.
1. Have no clue about US law
2. Have an opinion that Canadian law applies
Instead of posting here about things that you don't know, it might be worth your time to go educate yourself on the topic. AC's policies are freely available and show their reference to the specific US law. You can also find all of the information on what law applies online. That would save you from making statements that you've already said aren't accurate.
To help enlighten us people/sentient beings here, it would have been nice if you included links. Because we clearly need the help!
@eracerblue - how dare you post your thoughts!
#113
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 336
Instead of posting here about things that you don't know, it might be worth your time to go educate yourself on the topic. AC's policies are freely available and show their reference to the specific US law. You can also find all of the information on what law applies online. That would save you from making statements that you've already said aren't accurate.
And you also may have missed the part inline above where I stepped back, and gave way to your comments (as you appeared to know more about broad ADA aspects).
But by all means, please keep informing me/us about what we don't know... and round and round we go...
Or you know, we could actually make an attempt here to draw out the extent of the problem, which side is open to more abuse, and what we might do about it.
I took the time to re-read the thread last night and it appears the issue may be largely US based, and by your own knowledge, the lax rules around "service animals", rather than ESA's.
#114
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,405
So I have a dog and am therefore not allergic to anything. Maybe some humans.
IMHO :
True service dogs are just that - identified by a vest, well behaved, never off leash in a public place including a lounge or on the plane. They do not stray from their owner more than a very short leash distance.
Then there are ESAs. No doubt some people need them. These are house pets that provide a comfort factor. These tend not be be trained to the level of service dogs. They will bark, lick everything, play and wander off. Hence these need to be on leash or crated at all times in an airport or on a plane. Having them wandering down the plane aisle or in a lounge is a no no.
Then there are the fakes in both categories with ESA fakes more rampant specially in the US where I fly at least 2 times a month.
I doubt the airlines can do much about identifying fakes since they would have to accept the relevant paperwork. This should fall on aviation authorities to set more rigid rules. What the airlines should do is clamp down on behavior. If people let dogs wander around a plane or a lounge, ban them from traveling with a animal as they obviously cannot control the animal or are disregarding the rules. Provide a note to every passenger with an animal with a behavior expectation - on leash, crated, etc. We all follow rules at the airport and on the plane and so should they.
IMHO :
True service dogs are just that - identified by a vest, well behaved, never off leash in a public place including a lounge or on the plane. They do not stray from their owner more than a very short leash distance.
Then there are ESAs. No doubt some people need them. These are house pets that provide a comfort factor. These tend not be be trained to the level of service dogs. They will bark, lick everything, play and wander off. Hence these need to be on leash or crated at all times in an airport or on a plane. Having them wandering down the plane aisle or in a lounge is a no no.
Then there are the fakes in both categories with ESA fakes more rampant specially in the US where I fly at least 2 times a month.
I doubt the airlines can do much about identifying fakes since they would have to accept the relevant paperwork. This should fall on aviation authorities to set more rigid rules. What the airlines should do is clamp down on behavior. If people let dogs wander around a plane or a lounge, ban them from traveling with a animal as they obviously cannot control the animal or are disregarding the rules. Provide a note to every passenger with an animal with a behavior expectation - on leash, crated, etc. We all follow rules at the airport and on the plane and so should they.
#116
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson
Posts: 35,232
#118
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,405
SO now that Delta has announced new policies for ESA and sounds like perhaps AA will follow suit, lets see if AC does so too.
Delta Cracking Down on Emotional Support Animals - View from the Wing
Pretty much what I suggested upthread - get the pax to sign a letter accepting expectations of behavior. Delta is also requiring advance documentation incl doctors note, vaccination proof etc.
Lets hope AC follows suit and more importantly enforces it.
Delta Cracking Down on Emotional Support Animals - View from the Wing
Pretty much what I suggested upthread - get the pax to sign a letter accepting expectations of behavior. Delta is also requiring advance documentation incl doctors note, vaccination proof etc.
Lets hope AC follows suit and more importantly enforces it.
#119
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: TK *G
Posts: 3,055
SO now that Delta has announced new policies for ESA and sounds like perhaps AA will follow suit, lets see if AC does so too.
Delta Cracking Down on Emotional Support Animals - View from the Wing
Pretty much what I suggested upthread - get the pax to sign a letter accepting expectations of behavior. Delta is also requiring advance documentation incl doctors note, vaccination proof etc.
Lets hope AC follows suit and more importantly enforces it.
Delta Cracking Down on Emotional Support Animals - View from the Wing
Pretty much what I suggested upthread - get the pax to sign a letter accepting expectations of behavior. Delta is also requiring advance documentation incl doctors note, vaccination proof etc.
Lets hope AC follows suit and more importantly enforces it.
#120
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,527