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-   -   New eUpgrade Requirements! Co-pay for lower flex fares (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/1789272-new-eupgrade-requirements-co-pay-lower-flex-fares.html)

grandgourmand Sep 7, 2016 5:40 am


Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer (Post 27175981)
Ok, what am I missing here? J class to Pudong is $3500 RT.
The cheapest fare to upgrade is $820 + 26 credits + $850 CAD (taxes incl.)
That's $1670 plus the credits, right? OK. so please explain why you think that a Tango fare customer is going to be able to easily upgrade
You are aware that on the longhaul routes, the load factory is rather high? There is an ongoing issue of overbooking.
Then there are going to be the aeropoint addicts who will want their full points and will fly in flex and will also assume that they will stand a better chance of an upgrade. However, more likely will be the folks in PE looking to upgrade and they will occupy a higher part of the pecking order.

I appreciate that you like living life on the edge, an adventurer, willing to try new things like red tortilla chips vs yellow, or wearing those odd fitting boxer briefs from HM which I can't wear because I am too fat and too old. However, it seems to me that it is very, unlikely you will score the upgrade from a Tango fare. In plane language you are deluded. (Yes, I know it should be plain, but this is an air travel forum and I am trying to show off my grasp of language, and offer a witty pun, which I shouldn't have to explain, but I just know someone will notice). Of course, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, but I just think you are setting yourself up for heartbreak. Unless you have an ability to charm the system. Everyone's going to be upgrading, so it's going to be difficult to get one. What am I missing?

Just to play devil's advocate...maybe load factors will decline due to intensification of competition. The recent sales on DL and AA to PEK and PVG in J for sub$3k (I think well under) are one example of this challenge to AC. The other indication is that, as you point out, AC is offering this fare for ~$3500 in J which is rather cheap, if you can call it that. Third is that they are offering the eupgrade from the cheap class fares, period. Why else would they make upgrades more accessible on their aeroplain?

Here'a another question, though...is that co-pay example from YVR-YYZ for $400 a good deal? Seems to me that you could upgrade from flex when checking in for a similar price, with no eups.

Geoflying Sep 7, 2016 6:08 am

1 Attachment(s)
So here - points to note:

SE copay (mentioned before in this thread)

No expanded booking window

No upgrade to PE from Tango or Aeroplan

No upgrade from Aeroplan Market Fare (why not?)

It says here that LHR-YYZ is 3556 miles yet AP gives you only 3546 miles - where did the other 10 miles go?

Shareholder Sep 7, 2016 6:09 am


Originally Posted by grandgourmand (Post 27177013)
Here'a another question, though...is that co-pay example from YVR-YYZ for $400 a good deal? Seems to me that you could upgrade from flex when checking in for a similar price, with no eups.

Aside from the lotto factor of having any open business class on such a flight a day prior, why would one opt for a $400 copay (as much as twice the fare difference) when the cost difference between a Tango and Flex fare (mid-October) is $528 - $262/$328 = $266/$200? And depending upon one's status, confirm the upgrade many days sooner.

Not to knock this advance. It is nice to have the possibility of upgrading from an award or Tango ticket, but the cost:benefit seems questionable. But then it's similar to AC's weird fares when a Latitude can cost $1,200 while business can be had for $700 on the same flight/route (albeit with restrictions).

The Lev Sep 7, 2016 6:27 am


Originally Posted by FlyerGoldII (Post 27176875)
So anyone know whether SE will or will not pay be responsible for the co-pay in these situations?

Yes we pay the full co-pay - making this enhancement pretty much useless for SE's.

Indeed on a lot of routes right now buying J (P actually) isn't much more expensive than Tango plus co-pay.

Diabeetus Sep 7, 2016 6:36 am


Originally Posted by The Lev (Post 27177127)
Yes we pay the full co-pay - making this enhancement pretty much useless for SE's.

Indeed on a lot of routes right now buying J (P actually) isn't much more expensive than Tango plus co-pay.

Like many above, I am unimpressed by the copay for SE. Even the copay amounts themselves seem high to me for domestic routes.

I'd rather just buy the P fare too:
Confirmed J seat
More AQM
Saves Eups for other routes (I.e. TPAC from PY)

Disclaimer: I early qualify for S100k soon.

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 6:58 am


Originally Posted by vernonc (Post 27174262)
Is there a link announcing this promo ? Or is this the new normal ?

Sent by email to me this morning! I am very happy to be upgrading my Tango itinerary YOW-YYC tomorrow! Lots of R space right now.

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 6:59 am


Originally Posted by Jumper Jack (Post 27174263)
Maybe AC will finally decrease flex/tango fare differences a little as a result of it... and more inline with the co-pay difference. ($100-150 difference is easier for me to swallow for some extra AQM)

Hear hear! I hope so too!!

Jasper2009 Sep 7, 2016 7:01 am

Has anyone found an explanatin for the "add-on starting at $850" (for TPAC routes) / "add-on starting at $600" (TATL routes) yet?

Do add-on prices vary by country/destination or does the wording suggest dynamic pricing?

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 7:08 am


Originally Posted by Jasper2009 (Post 27177253)
Has anyone found an explanatin for the "add-on starting at $850" (for TPAC routes) / "add-on starting at $600" (TATL routes) yet?

Do add-on prices vary by country/destination or does the wording suggest dynamic pricing?

It appears to be by continent of travel (not respective of country?):

http://www.aircanada.com/en/offers/a...ade_offer.html

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 7:09 am

Anyone know the nature of the changes to fewer eupgrade credits on travel within Canada? I can't seem to see a difference as Flex is still 10 credits for flights of 1500 miles or more.

Jasper2009 Sep 7, 2016 7:14 am


Originally Posted by capebretonboy (Post 27177281)
It appears to be by continent of travel (not respective of country?):

http://www.aircanada.com/en/offers/a...ade_offer.html

Yeah, that's the way it has always been (e.g. higher co-pay for Asia than Europe).

But now for each region it says "starting at..." which seems to suggest add-ons for upgrades from X and Tango fares are variable and/or dynamic within one region.

Jasper2009 Sep 7, 2016 7:17 am


Originally Posted by capebretonboy (Post 27177288)
Anyone know the nature of the changes to fewer eupgrade credits on travel within Canada? I can't seem to see a difference as Flex is still 10 credits for flights of 1500 miles or more.

The official number of credits required to upgrade from most Flex fares is 15. However, AC has been running a "promo" for most of the year offering upgrades for the same number of credits which used to be the standard number up until ~a year ago.

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 7:17 am

Two questions:

1. If I buy a preferred seat and get upgraded, do I get a refund of the seat fee?

2. If I am flying YOW-YYZ-YYC cheapest Tango do I pay $50 + $200 = $250 or is it just $200 (like what they do with the credits by reducing it to total itinerary mileage?) Thanks!

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 7:19 am


Originally Posted by Jasper2009 (Post 27177309)
Yeah, that's the way it has always been (e.g. higher co-pay for Asia than Europe).

But now for each region it says "starting at..." which seems to suggest add-ons for upgrades from X and Tango fares are variable and/or dynamic within one region.

More details can be found in the eupgrade account site. It is more nuanced by fare class. I think that answers your question. Thank you for your reply to my earlier question about the reduced eupgrade credits.

Jasper2009 Sep 7, 2016 7:27 am


Originally Posted by capebretonboy (Post 27177328)
More details can be found in the eupgrade account site. It is more nuanced by fare class. I think that answers your question.

Maybe I'm just dense, but take a look at the chart for Canada - Asia/Australia, for instance:

Under "Aeroplan (Fixed Mileage - X booking class) it says "26 (credits) + add-on starting at $850".

Doesn't this imply that the add-on pricing for booking class X within this particular market (Canada - Asia/Australia) is variable?

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 7:33 am


Originally Posted by Jasper2009 (Post 27177370)
Maybe I'm just dense, but take a look at the chart for Canada - Asia/Australia, for instance:

Under "Aeroplan (Fixed Mileage - X booking class) it says "26 (credits) + add-on starting at $850".

Doesn't this imply that the add-on pricing for booking class X within this particular market (Canada - Asia/Australia) is variable?

Perhaps. Although in the eupgrade account chart it simply says $850. I take that as the only price you pay and it does not vary.

BlondeBomber Sep 7, 2016 7:59 am

AC still (as noted previously in this thread before the official announcement) needs to update its eupgrade page within your account where it still says:

"An eUpgrade Add-on will not apply to:
upgrade requests made by Altitude Super Elite 100K members
upgrade requests to Premium Economy or Premium rouge
Altitude members travelling on a Latitude or Premium Economy (flexible) fare
travel within Canada, or between Canada and the United States or Sun destinations."

Obviously Tango fares "special" is an exception . . .

acysb87 Sep 7, 2016 8:15 am


Originally Posted by Diabeetus (Post 27177155)
Like many above, I am unimpressed by the copay for SE. Even the copay amounts themselves seem high to me for domestic routes.

I'd rather just buy the P fare too:
Confirmed J seat
More AQM
Saves Eups for other routes (I.e. TPAC from PY)

Disclaimer: I early qualify for S100k soon.

Here we go, a position that reflects my sentiments^

Too much voodoo stuff going on. Who is going to administer all this "stuff" and then understand it as well at the gate or at check in???

gregster Sep 7, 2016 8:22 am


Originally Posted by capebretonboy (Post 27177322)
Two questions:
1. If I buy a preferred seat and get upgraded, do I get a refund of the seat fee?

Yes, though you may have to email in as it doesn't seem automatic, or at least not automatic in a timely manner.

yyznomad Sep 7, 2016 8:39 am


Originally Posted by Geoflying (Post 27177081)
So here - points to note:

SE copay (mentioned before in this thread)

No expanded booking window

No upgrade to PE from Tango or Aeroplan

No upgrade from Aeroplan Market Fare (why not?)

It says here that LHR-YYZ is 3556 miles yet AP gives you only 3546 miles - where did the other 10 miles go?

When is this booking for?

As for miles, we all know and it has been spoken ad nauseum here that published miles are a few to a couple dozen miles off what is credited. LHR no exception!

ffsim Sep 7, 2016 8:43 am


Originally Posted by Geoflying (Post 27177081)
No upgrade from Aeroplan Market Fare (why not?)

I find this curious, too. Market Fares are at the very least Tango fares, so I don't understand why they can't be upgraded if AC allows upgrades from outright Tango fares. Strange.

alc Sep 7, 2016 8:55 am


Originally Posted by ffsim (Post 27177675)
I find this curious, too. Market Fares are at the very least Tango fares, so I don't understand why they can't be upgraded if AC allows upgrades from outright Tango fares. Strange.

I haven't catch-up all the reading on this thread yet, but are we sure it will not work for Market Fares? I understood the chart show Aeroplan Classic, but as you stated, Market Fares is not "X" class, so it might work.

Anyone here got a Market Fares ticket before Jan 9 that can try to put it in the eUpg account and see if it will show "Upgrades can only be requested within 1 days of departure." or not?

YVR72 Sep 7, 2016 9:03 am

I have a feeling the R Games are going to get a lot worse. But, I had a hunch this permanent change to standard upgrades was coming. They misjudged the impact of the original program revisions and have fixed it.

I've got several transcon flights coming up this fall so we shall see how it goes.

ridefar Sep 7, 2016 9:05 am


Originally Posted by Diabeetus (Post 27177155)
Like many above, I am unimpressed by the copay for SE. Even the copay amounts themselves seem high to me for domestic routes.

I'd rather just buy the P fare too:
Confirmed J seat
More AQM
Saves Eups for other routes (I.e. TPAC from PY)

Disclaimer: I early qualify for S100k soon.

Seems to me that for domestic routes the copay is pretty similar to the LMU prices. So like why bother?

YEGTigger Sep 7, 2016 9:06 am


Originally Posted by alc (Post 27177734)
I haven't catch-up all the reading on this thread yet, but are we sure it will not work for Market Fares? I understood the chart show Aeroplan Classic, but as you stated, Market Fares is not "X" class, so it might work.

Anyone here got a Market Fares ticket before Jan 9 that can try to put it in the eUpg account and see if it will show "Upgrades can only be requested within 1 days of departure." or not?

I've got one in October that when I put it in says "Upgrades can only be requested within 14 days of departure." So, that would seem to indicate it is upgradeable.

ffsim Sep 7, 2016 9:13 am


Originally Posted by alc (Post 27177734)
I haven't catch-up all the reading on this thread yet, but are we sure it will not work for Market Fares? I understood the chart show Aeroplan Classic, but as you stated, Market Fares is not "X" class, so it might work.

Anyone here got a Market Fares ticket before Jan 9 that can try to put it in the eUpg account and see if it will show "Upgrades can only be requested within 1 days of departure." or not?

Good suggestion.

I tried upgrading an upcoming reward flight booked for my wife. One segment is in A and the other is in T. The message alongside both segments says:


Upgrades can only be requested within 10 days of departure.
So it's half nonsense and half encouraging. Nonsense because as an E50, I can't upgrade her unless she's on my PNR and even then, as far as I know, only at the airport on the day of departure. Yet it's encouraging because if I could actually upgrade her, it would be at the T-10 day mark.

So basically, flip a coin ;)

YOWgary Sep 7, 2016 9:29 am


Originally Posted by ridefar (Post 27177788)
Seems to me that for domestic routes the copay is pretty similar to the LMU prices. So like why bother?

Sunk-cost fallacy.

AC is betting that 25Ks will think "well, I've got all these upgrade certificates, and it'd be a shame to just let them expire..."

Honestly, I think this is all simply a revenue-management move, trying to find a way to further monetize expired eUps and squeeze out another $500/yr per lower-tier FF member.

At this point, AC are offering several different ways to pay to upgrade, all of which seem calculated to make the passenger feel like "oh, it's just a little more", when, as many have shown here, LMU, or co-pay, or whatever, comes out to almost as much, or even more than, simply buying the higher fare in the first place.

I've been talking about it for a year and a half, now I'm ready to plant a flag on it - you'll be able to buy eUp credits by the end of 2018.

capebretonboy Sep 7, 2016 9:45 am


Originally Posted by YOWgary (Post 27177888)
Sunk-cost fallacy.

AC is betting that 25Ks will think "well, I've got all these upgrade certificates, and it'd be a shame to just let them expire..."

Honestly, I think this is all simply a revenue-management move, trying to find a way to further monetize expired eUps and squeeze out another $500/yr per lower-tier FF member.

At this point, AC are offering several different ways to pay to upgrade, all of which seem calculated to make the passenger feel like "oh, it's just a little more", when, as many have shown here, LMU, or co-pay, or whatever, comes out to almost as much, or even more than, simply buying the higher fare in the first place.

I think you are right on the psychology of this.. I am already thinking "it's just a little more, AC is allowing me to do it from Tango now, so why not. It is somewhat of a win-win for both parties. They make a little extra and I get to upgrade a previously unupgradeable itinerary (is that a word?)

172pilot Sep 7, 2016 9:56 am


Originally Posted by ridefar (Post 27177788)
Seems to me that for domestic routes the copay is pretty similar to the LMU prices. So like why bother?

Agreed. The copay makes the Tango upgrade kind of useless. My company won't pay the copay but will pay for Flex. The copay seems to be higher than the fare difference in some cases.

I hope this is a trial run for the next 4 months and then will be adjusted for the 2017 benefit year.

Diabeetus Sep 7, 2016 10:04 am


Originally Posted by YOWgary (Post 27177888)
Sunk-cost fallacy.

AC is betting that 25Ks will think "well, I've got all these upgrade certificates, and it'd be a shame to just let them expire..."

Honestly, I think this is all simply a revenue-management move, trying to find a way to further monetize expired eUps and squeeze out another $500/yr per lower-tier FF member.

Speaking of lower tiered elites, I think WestJet does it better.

A WS FF can use an upgrade certificate on the lowest fare to all destinations except Hawaii/LGW. They need to do the upgrade at the gate, once the flight is closed. If there is space in Plus, then they get the upgrade.

No copays. No fare class shenanigans.

alc Sep 7, 2016 10:21 am

Thanks for those that try to upgrade a Market Fare ticket. So, it look like it is processing like any normal revenue ticket for now. Let see what happen when it is indeed within T-10

Re: LMU vs. co-pay. I recalled a recent thread state co-pay goes toward AQD while i also recalled from a thread eariler this year that LMU do not. If my memory (not the one you can really trust) is correct and the cost is about the same, it might be better to co-pay to top up your AQD. Say, you are < $50 short, a co-pay of $50 during an upcoming company only willing to pay Tango yyz-yow trip might not be that bad vs doing a round trip MR somewhere else.

alc Sep 7, 2016 10:27 am


Originally Posted by Diabeetus (Post 27178053)
Speaking of lower tiered elites, I think WestJet does it better.

A WS FF can use an upgrade certificate on the lowest fare to all destinations except Hawaii/LGW. They need to do the upgrade at the gate, once the flight is closed. If there is space in Plus, then they get the upgrade.

No copays. No fare class shenanigans.

But is Plus really compareable to AC N.A. J... oh wait the WJ commercial only compare to a Full Y / Latitude ticket :)

What i am saying is that because the product is different, the demand is also differrent and hence handling it the old paper AC cert way will be fine. Remember how most of us complain about the cert/wallpaper back in the days?

Kraafish Sep 7, 2016 10:37 am

Went on and tried my SFO-YYZ-IST itinerary in which I booked in Tango.

IST-YYZ $1600
YYZ-SFO $ 400

Hmmm, well considered my first leg from SFO-IST during online check-in I got asked if I want to get upgrade for significant less on both legs, eventually I got upgraded at the gate for free in SFO-YYZ flight. I feel like this is just another way to ripped low-tier customer out. If I want to spend extra $400 to upgrade my YYZ-SFO flight I might as well buy a flex fare and get more mileages.

Diabeetus Sep 7, 2016 10:39 am


Originally Posted by alc (Post 27178160)
But is Plus really compareable to AC N.A. J... oh wait the WJ commercial only compare to a Full Y / Latitude ticket :)

What i am saying is that because the product is different, the demand is also differrent and hence handling it the old paper AC cert way will be fine. Remember how most of us complain about the cert/wallpaper back in the days?

Good point. The WS Plus is an inferior soft/hard product to AC NA J. Especially if you can do a ULH in a widebody

YOWgary Sep 7, 2016 11:08 am


Originally Posted by Kraafish (Post 27178205)
If I want to spend extra $400 to upgrade my YYZ-SFO flight I might as well buy a flex fare and get more mileages.

Sure, if you control the overall purchase decision.

Lots of us do most of our flying on tickets purchased by clients and/or employers, which most often means lowest-Y.

Paying out of pocket to up-fare to Flex, just for a chance at maybe playing Aerolotto, is a pretty long bet; at least this way, an employee trying to eUp from an employer-purchased Tango fare knows s/he won't pay the fee unless the upgrade clears.

canadiancow Sep 7, 2016 1:00 pm


Originally Posted by Jasper2009 (Post 27177370)
Maybe I'm just dense, but take a look at the chart for Canada - Asia/Australia, for instance:

Under "Aeroplan (Fixed Mileage - X booking class) it says "26 (credits) + add-on starting at $850".

Doesn't this imply that the add-on pricing for booking class X within this particular market (Canada - Asia/Australia) is variable?

North America is a better example.

SFO-YVR is significantly less than SFO-YYZ.

It's possible that they could make different parts of Asia require different co-pays, if they haven't already.

macleod199 Sep 7, 2016 1:41 pm


Originally Posted by YOWgary (Post 27178366)
Sure, if you control the overall purchase decision.

Lots of us do most of our flying on tickets purchased by clients and/or employers, which most often means lowest-Y.

Paying out of pocket to up-fare to Flex, just for a chance at maybe playing Aerolotto, is a pretty long bet; at least this way, an employee trying to eUp from an employer-purchased Tango fare knows s/he won't pay the fee unless the upgrade clears.

This speaks more to my experience. I have two employers, both of whom do tango, except sometimes for rarer longer trips.

I got a little bit excited when I saw the email from AC on this, as I've been pretty much always unable to use my eUpgrades since starting to be credited them a few years ago. There were rare cases where my tickets were booked late/on busy flights so I was in an upgradeable class, but mostly they just expired.

I quickly become unexcited when I remembered that YHZ-YYZ has gone to all Q400s, all the time, with no J, so upgrades are pretty much academic for me at this point. I understand like AC is buying more and more Q400s, so potentially coming to a short haul route near you. This change has made E35K not that exciting, especially because the WiFi in YHZ MLL is almost always unusable, and their food/beverage service can be erratic. If I'm going to be stuck on Q400s for 80% of my flights it sort of makes no odds if I'm on Porter or WestJet Regional or whatever. So maybe AC is trying to dangle something in front of people like me to get us interested again.

That said, I'm currently living between in Northern Italy for 3 months, and may have one transatlantic during that time, so who knows. Maybe I can upgrade the wife and I on at least part of the trip home (mix of LH/AC), or maybe if I'm feeling fancy going YHZ-YYZ at Christmas time. There's an outside chance I may even make 50K this year, so at least I'll get worldwide lounge access and priority baggage for my 1-2 international trips a year.

YOWgary Sep 7, 2016 1:45 pm


Originally Posted by macleod199 (Post 27179075)
I quickly become unexcited when I remembered that YHZ-YYZ has gone to all Q400s, all the time, with no J, so upgrades are pretty much academic for me at this point.

Am I missing something? For YYZ-YHZ I'm seeing 320,E90,320,E90,763,320,319...

yyznomad Sep 7, 2016 3:34 pm


Originally Posted by YOWgary (Post 27179099)
Am I missing something? For YYZ-YHZ I'm seeing 320,E90,320,E90,763,320,319...

No, you're not missing anything.

YHZ_Flyer Sep 7, 2016 3:47 pm


Originally Posted by YOWgary (Post 27179099)
Am I missing something? For YYZ-YHZ I'm seeing 320,E90,320,E90,763,320,319...

Maybe he's confusing it for YHZ-YOW, which for the summer months went all Q400s. YHZ-YOW is going back to the CRA shortly. ACs service into YHZ has actually been expanded with the 321s flying in more often, and more 320s than E90s now.


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