Unsecured cabin on landing/takeoff

Old Jul 9, 16, 2:24 pm
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Unsecured cabin on landing/takeoff

I'm curious how often AC lets the cabin land without securing it correctly.

Two out of two flights today my seat has the incorrect configuration for landing, and it's probably at least twice a week I encounter this.

AC isn't the only airline that has this issue. I'm not just talking like a slightly reclined seat. I'm talking, armrest completely up in J pod, tray table not stowed, etc. It is possible the prior pax made these config changes while deplaning, however that seems unlikely. Perhaps I'll chalk it up to that.

As I've said in another thread, I guess it only hinders the other pax in the case of emergency egress, but that was somewhat tongue and cheek. If someone is hindered when trying to egress, the additional stress will result in more trouble for other pax.

Takeoff is harder to control as some pax feel it's appropriate to recline or do other stupid things as soon as the FAs are strapped in.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 2:29 pm
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This is not news lol. Or unique to air Canada.

Asian airlines are the worst.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 2:36 pm
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
I'm curious how often AC lets the cabin land without securing it correctly.

Two out of two flights today my seat has the incorrect configuration for landing, and it's probably at least twice a week I encounter this.

AC isn't the only airline that has this issue. I'm not just talking like a slightly reclined seat. I'm talking, armrest completely up in J pod, tray table not stowed, etc. It is possible the prior pax made these config changes while deplaning, however that seems unlikely. Perhaps I'll chalk it up to that.

As I've said in another thread, I guess it only hinders the other pax in the case of emergency egress, but that was somewhat tongue and cheek. If someone is hindered when trying to egress, the additional stress will result in more trouble for other pax.

Takeoff is harder to control as some pax feel it's appropriate to recline or do other stupid things as soon as the FAs are strapped in.
I've talked about this with several FTers offline/in-person but never bothered to post on FT... But now that you have asked, I'm curious as well. I see at least one "improper" or thing during takeoff or landing about half the time. Way too many to post individually or make a fuss here each time I witness it.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 2:51 pm
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Originally Posted by yyznomad View Post
I've talked about this with several FTers offline/in-person but never bothered to post on FT... But now that you have asked, I'm curious as well. I see at least one "improper" or thing during takeoff or landing about half the time. Way too many to post individually or make a fuss here each time I witness it.
Yea it feels about 50% of the time too... It just kinda struck me two flights in a row.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 2:57 pm
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One time in the old HD style J cabin, I felt a jolt and woke up only to realize we had just landed. The FAs must have tried to wake me up, but I was too out of it.

I couldn't imagine what would have happened if we needed to evacuate in that situation. I have always waken up and gotten my seat in upright positions ever since.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 3:02 pm
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
Takeoff is harder to control as some pax feel it's appropriate to recline or do other stupid things as soon as the FAs are strapped in.
Pray, tell us you full stop at every stop sign always, slow down to a crawl at railroad tracks, and always have your seat belt on in your car at all times.

I find AC to be a mixed bag with these minor safety issues, but no different from most other airlines save the American ones.

*mainly referring to J pod issues. Normal cabin these are serious safety issues.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 3:33 pm
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In 2010 I was on a 763 that landed at YVR whilst the crew were still walking through the J cabin (they apparently had no idea they were about to land). I've not seen that since, but have seen some crews leave it it until the last possible second before they sit down.

With the new J pods, I've not crews pay very much attention to whether they are properly positioned for landing - maybe they are still checking, but with the old pods they seemed generally conscientious in trying to get the green light on, even if it wasn't working. I've not seen much (if any) obvious attention paid to checking the arm-rests on recent flights. The new tray tables seem capable of de-stowing themselves quite easily though.
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Old Jul 9, 16, 4:16 pm
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
I'm curious how often AC lets the cabin land without securing it correctly.

Two out of two flights today my seat has the incorrect configuration for landing, and it's probably at least twice a week I encounter this.

AC isn't the only airline that has this issue. I'm not just talking like a slightly reclined seat. I'm talking, armrest completely up in J pod, tray table not stowed, etc. It is possible the prior pax made these config changes while deplaning, however that seems unlikely. Perhaps I'll chalk it up to that.

As I've said in another thread, I guess it only hinders the other pax in the case of emergency egress, but that was somewhat tongue and cheek. If someone is hindered when trying to egress, the additional stress will result in more trouble for other pax.

Takeoff is harder to control as some pax feel it's appropriate to recline or do other stupid things as soon as the FAs are strapped in.
The equipment gets in that configuration because;
1. It is broken and does not stay in place. Unusual, but I had a TV screen that wouldn't stay in place.
2. It was moved during cleaning before pax boarded and was not put back by the cleaner.
3.The passenger who sat there moved the item.

In the case of 3, what do you expect from a FA? They make the cabin pass through. The seat lights will be green if the seat is in landing position and red if not. On EVERY flight I have been on the FAs do stop and tell pax to fix seats or they do it themselves. You now what I do? I wait till the FAs are seated and cannot see me and I pop my TV open because I like to watch the map in the final 20 minutes. Why blame the airline when its the pax who misbehave? If you have an issue with my behaviour, come and tell me onboard. I would be delighted to share my views with you and to share 25 years of data on injuries associated with armrests and open J pod TV screens.

Here's a hint: The majority of injuries, that means in excess of 90%, are related to pax not being buckled up or overhead baggage not being properly secured or the bags themselves exceeding size and weight limits.

If you want to quibble over an arm rest, go for it. As for the seat, if it is not upright, the pax changed the seat after the final cabin check. There is nothing the FAs can do about that if someone wishes to do that. They cannot stop the plane and tell the person to get off, can they?
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Old Jul 10, 16, 12:44 am
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Originally Posted by YYT82 View Post
One time in the old HD style J cabin, I felt a jolt and woke up only to realize we had just landed. The FAs must have tried to wake me up, but I was too out of it.

I couldn't imagine what would have happened if we needed to evacuate in that situation. I have always waken up and gotten my seat in upright positions ever since.
I've been passed out beyond landing. =P But I usually have my seat in upright.

Originally Posted by Bonaventure View Post
Pray, tell us you full stop at every stop sign always, slow down to a crawl at railroad tracks, and always have your seat belt on in your car at all times.

I find AC to be a mixed bag with these minor safety issues, but no different from most other airlines save the American ones.

*mainly referring to J pod issues. Normal cabin these are serious safety issues.
I don't drive. I do wear a seatbelt in every cab and uber I take.

Originally Posted by eos75 View Post
In 2010 I was on a 763 that landed at YVR whilst the crew were still walking through the J cabin (they apparently had no idea they were about to land). I've not seen that since, but have seen some crews leave it it until the last possible second before they sit down.

With the new J pods, I've not crews pay very much attention to whether they are properly positioned for landing - maybe they are still checking, but with the old pods they seemed generally conscientious in trying to get the green light on, even if it wasn't working. I've not seen much (if any) obvious attention paid to checking the arm-rests on recent flights. The new tray tables seem capable of de-stowing themselves quite easily though.
The tray table doesn't seem to destow itself that I've seen. But yes, pax without seatbelt on, or still reclined in Y, is pretty serious for other pax, nm the actual offender. Just had a crew that conscientiously put every armrest down in J, and this is how they were trained.


Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
The equipment gets in that configuration because;
1. It is broken and does not stay in place. Unusual, but I had a TV screen that wouldn't stay in place.
2. It was moved during cleaning before pax boarded and was not put back by the cleaner.
3.The passenger who sat there moved the item.

In the case of 3, what do you expect from a FA? They make the cabin pass through. The seat lights will be green if the seat is in landing position and red if not. On EVERY flight I have been on the FAs do stop and tell pax to fix seats or they do it themselves. You now what I do? I wait till the FAs are seated and cannot see me and I pop my TV open because I like to watch the map in the final 20 minutes. Why blame the airline when its the pax who misbehave? If you have an issue with my behaviour, come and tell me onboard. I would be delighted to share my views with you and to share 25 years of data on injuries associated with armrests and open J pod TV screens.

Here's a hint: The majority of injuries, that means in excess of 90%, are related to pax not being buckled up or overhead baggage not being properly secured or the bags themselves exceeding size and weight limits.

If you want to quibble over an arm rest, go for it. As for the seat, if it is not upright, the pax changed the seat after the final cabin check. There is nothing the FAs can do about that if someone wishes to do that. They cannot stop the plane and tell the person to get off, can they?
The "open screen" and "green light" do not exist as far as I can see in the dreamcabin. Only lights I see are purple (ac plugged in) and yellow (do not disturb) So I guess this only applies to the old XM cabins still floating around on the 333? And I've sneaked a peak at the map below 10,000 as well, but not at flare.

Ok, let me clarify: I've seen seatbelts dangling in the aisle during landing (In Y and Y+), and a complete failure to even walk through the cabin before landing. In these cases, I don't think the pax was trying to cause trouble, but just forgot or didn't notice.

Anyhow, I'm not arguing the "rules" are good or bad. I'm saying they're not being followed, and I think it's a dangerous mentality when crew creatively invent ad hoc procedures. That being said, just had a couple very good AC longhauls, and crew were absolutely over-the-top with service and in the securing the cabin. If indeed the armrest position isn't a concern, then it needs to be changed in the standard operating procedures, not ignored randomly by some crew.
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Old Jul 10, 16, 2:38 am
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There are a lot seats to look at. But there is even more ignorant pax that do not listen to instructions. I usually find FA checking up and down many times.
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Old Jul 10, 16, 10:37 am
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
I've been passed out beyond landing. =P But I usually have my seat in upright.



I don't drive. I do wear a seatbelt in every cab and uber I take.



The tray table doesn't seem to destow itself that I've seen. But yes, pax without seatbelt on, or still reclined in Y, is pretty serious for other pax, nm the actual offender. Just had a crew that conscientiously put every armrest down in J, and this is how they were trained.


The "open screen" and "green light" do not exist as far as I can see in the dreamcabin. Only lights I see are purple (ac plugged in) and yellow (do not disturb) So I guess this only applies to the old XM cabins still floating around on the 333? And I've sneaked a peak at the map below 10,000 as well, but not at flare.

Ok, let me clarify: I've seen seatbelts dangling in the aisle during landing (In Y and Y+), and a complete failure to even walk through the cabin before landing. In these cases, I don't think the pax was trying to cause trouble, but just forgot or didn't notice.

Anyhow, I'm not arguing the "rules" are good or bad. I'm saying they're not being followed, and I think it's a dangerous mentality when crew creatively invent ad hoc procedures. That being said, just had a couple very good AC longhauls, and crew were absolutely over-the-top with service and in the securing the cabin. If indeed the armrest position isn't a concern, then it needs to be changed in the standard operating procedures, not ignored randomly by some crew.
In respect to the lights, I apologize as I think of my B777 flights. I haven't been on an AC B787 yet. (I know, it's odd, but they don't use them for my flights to HKIA & TYO) If you look at this picture of Mr. Makris, the tech writer, you will see the indicator lights in his selfie.

We all agree on the need for securing the cabin. However, safety is also a reflection of the passenger. The issues you raise are in large part due to passenger behavior. Pax do not listen. We have all seen the idiots on some routes rushing the aisles before the plane is stopped. I keep hoping we stop suddenly and one of those idiots smacks his head. We all know about the importance of seatbelts. I buckle up when sleeping. I'm pretty sure everyone else does too on this forum. And yet we have idiots who do not and then whinge when they get tossed when the plane hits some turbulence. What can the FA do? The announcements are made in the safety videos before takeoff and at landing. The FAs may go through the cabin, but the obligation to do so isn't there because the warnings are given in the videos. All the FAs really need do is to check the aisles and exit rows for debris and obstruction. The verification of passengers seats is an "extra" as part of good operating practice. The duty to behave responsibly rests with the passenger who has been informed by the video and by multiple on board announcements. If passengers do not wish to listen, well there isn't much that can be done.
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Old Jul 10, 16, 9:09 pm
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
I'm curious how often AC lets the cabin land without securing it correctly.
Not very often based on my anecdotal observations.

I'm talking, armrest completely up in J pod, tray table not stowed, etc. It is possible the prior pax made these config changes while deplaning, however that seems unlikely.[/quote]

Guilty as charged. . I routinely store my empty vitamin water bottles in the little holder beneath the armrest and raise the armrest after landing to retrieve them. As for the tables, sometimes a good nudge releases them, I have done that on occasion as I'm slinging my backpack over my shoulder.

Takeoff is harder to control as some pax feel it's appropriate to recline or do other stupid things as soon as the FAs are strapped in.
I see this on every flight without fail.

Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
You now what I do? I wait till the FAs are seated and cannot see me and I pop my TV open because I like to watch the map in the final 20 minutes. Why blame the airline when its the pax who misbehave? If you have an issue with my behaviour, come and tell me onboard. I would be delighted to share my views with you and to share 25 years of data on injuries associated with armrests and open J pod TV screens.

Here's a hint: The majority of injuries, that means in excess of 90%, are related to pax not being buckled up or overhead baggage not being properly secured or the bags themselves exceeding size and weight limits.
You are also willfully violation federal regulations regarding aircraft safety - nice!!
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Old Jul 10, 16, 9:10 pm
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
In respect to the lights, I apologize as I think of my B777 flights. I haven't been on an AC B787 yet. (I know, it's odd, but they don't use them for my flights to HKIA & TYO) If you look at this picture of Mr. Makris, the tech writer, you will see the indicator lights in his selfie.
Yes, I know the green light... I also know when it flickers all flight long because someone has their seat on the edge of the sensor threshold... and I know the seated pax can't really see the state of this light and thus has no clue they're flashing everyone for hours-on-end. =P (almost like the silly reading spotlight behind head that never aimed anywhere useful)

And they should be using dreamcabin 777's to HKIA and TYO now for months, no? I haven't seen an XM pod for months now. Dunno, haven't been to Asia in a while.

Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer View Post
We have all seen the idiots on some routes rushing the aisles before the plane is stopped. I keep hoping we stop suddenly and one of those idiots smacks his head.
I've seen exactly this. Don't think he hit his head, but he did fall in the aisle. When you're sitting, the braking seems minor, but I think it's actually pretty abrupt if you're standing for the first time in hours and aren't accustomed to the movements. I think my reaction was more of concern for his well-being, and well, other pax around him... but thinking back, of course, it was entirely his fault.

Not suggesting "secured cabin" should mean every groin has been inspected for fastened seatbelt, but dangling in the aisle with zero walkthrough for 60 minutes prior to landing is not cool either. (For instance seated in Y+ cabin, TCON, crew excited by their first 787 flight, you know... humans)
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Old Jul 10, 16, 9:18 pm
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Originally Posted by jaysona View Post
Guilty as charged. . I routinely store my empty vitamin water bottles in the little holder beneath the armrest and raise the armrest after landing to retrieve them. As for the tables, sometimes a good nudge releases them, I have done that on occasion as I'm slinging my backpack over my shoulder.
Actually, the nudge/tray-slide thing I've done too come to think of it. I think the latch disengages slightly one way, then falls quickly enough to pass the next catching "tooth" thing. (have pictures from last year somewhere, as well as the paper-cutting razor-sharp rail corner which has been fixed on the 777 dreamcabins at least) But I've yet to board with the tray unstowed. Arm rest "slightly" up I understand. Completely up, pushing it... easy to spot from the aisle too.

On the tray, the safety video shows a woman gently sliding it up without holding the lockbar beneath. Can you even do that? Like the mechanism would make such a noise if it worked.

And I'm guilty of tossing that free bottle of water in the "do not stow" arm bucket, and my phone in the "do not stow" table bucket, lid closed. What's kinda gross is the shoes, slippers, and socks that have been in that same container before. A bit more aroma and flavour is always good. =P
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Old Jul 10, 16, 9:20 pm
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Originally Posted by DrunkCargo View Post
Actually, the nudge/tray-slide thing I've done too come to think of it. I think the latch disengages slightly one way, then falls quickly enough to pass the next catching "tooth" thing. (have pictures from last year somewhere, as well as the paper-cutting razor-sharp rail corner which has been fixed on the 777 dreamcabins at least) But I've yet to board with the tray unstowed. Arm rest "slightly" up I understand. Completely up, pushing it... easy to spot from the aisle too.
Happens all the time, bro.
Up to May of this year, I had been on every dream cabin fin that was in service from two to 20 times each. This is common.
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