Back- to-back or not?
 

Is this really illegal or just for travel agents. Back when CP was around my TA would book one ticket with CP and the other with AC. I would only use the outbound portion of each and it was still less expensive than a regular fare. Of course this was only worth while whenever a good seat sale was on. Especially for domestic travel. Since CP is gone my TA doesn’t offer this anymore since they claim to have been charged penalty fees by AC. One of their clients showed up at the check-in counter and presented the wrong thicket. AC charged him for the balance of the Y fare.

How could this be illegal if the AC web site or Destina permits someone to purchase back-to-back tickets without warning them? Where are these rules stated? I know a few people who still do this without any problems. Anybody out there that have had bad experiences with b-to-b?

Thanks


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Prestige

There was a big discussion around this a few weeks back...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/006623.html

The discussion boiled down to 'it seems to be illegal but plenty of people do it and don't get caught'.

While obvious BtB circumvents airline pricing rules (and illegal), nesting tickets (ie buying two rt tickets for the same city pair and then using them 1-2-2-1) is not. But, as you will see in the thread, plenty of people do it and get away with it...

Thanks.. I’m new here and should have looked around more

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Prestige

Welcome to FT!

The older thread gets pretty flamed in places...I've nested lots of times and no one has ever noticed or bothered me about it...it's been great to avoid peak season fares on at least on many trips!

Since your 'contract of carriage' is with two different airlines in your case, Prestige, and while I'm most certainly not an expert (especially in this forum), I would imagine that you're not breaking any rules, since you're flying on two carriers, and abiding by their contracts.

I would imagine, however, that if the CoC said that you couldn't fly on any other carrier between the same points if the return leg on Ticket A hasn't been flown, then there might be an issue.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking of coming home for Easter for three weeks --gotta love the UK... Since travel has already commenced on the ticket that I'm on, if I go out and buy a seat-sale ticket (not from Destina!!!), what are the chances of being caught? Would it be a good idea to get a LHRYUL ticket instead lf LHRYOW?

[This message has been edited by YOWkid (edited 01-15-2003).]

I think the chance of you being caught is close to zero. You're really nesting, rather than BtB, and this is not illegal.

I'm wondering, though, when would you actually use the back end (ie LHR-YOW) of the ticket that you have?

June 26. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Maybe I'm being thick...
are you thinking of going outbound (YOW) and inbound (LHR) on a new ticket, with all travel on the new ticket completed before you use up the return flight on the ticket you currently have?

If so, you are not even really nesting (ie not taking advantage of fare discrepancies)

Go for it!

I think my understanding of the meaning of the term "nesting" might differ from others'. The term has a well-defined, formal meaning in IT. It means one object fully contained within another object (or nested inside another):

1-2-2-1 is nesting.
1-2-3-3-2-1 is 2 level nesting.

1-2-1-2 is not nesting (because there's an ovelap).

What YOWkid is describing (if I understand him correctly) is nesting -- not b-to-b.

Maybe the term is used differently in the context of airline tickets.

But that is nesting, and doing so can be used to get around rules (like minumum stay).

No, not thick at all... I'm just not explaining it properly...

Ok, here's the scenario using Ticket A and B to demonstrate what I would be doing:
A: YOWLHR Jan
B: LHRYOW Mar
B: YOWLHR Apr
A: LHRYOW Jun

I guess that's level 1 nesting?

[This message has been edited by YOWkid (edited 01-15-2003).]

You're correct, this is considered as back to back in the context of airline tickets.

This is considered as back to back but AC is only concerned if you are using it to by pass Saturday night stays or other minimum stay requirement.

In your case, even if you buy 2 seperate tickets, complete one before another, you would still be buying 2 seat sale tickets.

As long as you fly all segments, I assure you that you won't run into any problems.

Nesting in just a general term in airline ticketing. Within nesting - you have either end-to-end or back-to-back. End to end meaning you are using 2 tickets to get to your destination and it's perfectly legal in most cases.

To be more accurate, end-on-end fare construction allows you to build more than one itinerary into a single ticket. Since there is only one series of coupons, there is no nesting.

Nesting is the practice of flying an itinerary after completing the outbound journey, but before completing the inbound journey of a different ticket.

If the nested itinerary takes you back to the point of origin (or a co-terminal) of the first ticket, then that is considered back-to-back. If you go to a third city, then

There is also end on end ticketing which requires 2 of more tickets so it is considered as nesting.

So your definition of nesting is the same as the IT definition.

The back-to-the-point-of-origin scenario is one for which a need comes up quite often (at least for me) in "real life." Here's the situation: I'm on a vacation - perhaps for 3 weeks - and the need arises for me to return to the point of origin for a short time - perhaps one day (a business emergency). So I buy a return ticket back to the point of origin and, upon return from that trip, resume my vacation.

So that's nesting and back-to-back. Possibly, depending on the fares, it might be considered illegal. (??) But I can't imagine a carrier objecting to this; that would be beyond unreasonable.

So that middle ticket is most likely a full fare anyways. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Like I said - if you fly all segments, then you'll most likely be fine. Just don't try and pull back to back stunts by booking thru your friendly TA, they could get in big trouble.

It's when you start combining back to back and throwaway ticket and develops a trend - then you'll raise a flag at YWG for sure.

In theory - AC would expect you to pay a change fee to move up your return date. Then buy another ticket to resume your vacation.

OK so if I understand this.. Using outbound of ticket A and returning home with the outbound of ticket B within the same week (no Saturday) and not using both inbound tickets is illegal. Will destina tell me this if I book through them? If not, how is a person to know and how can this be illegal if THEY are the ones selling it to me in the first place!!?

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Prestige

Well, before you purchase:
I guess it's up to you to find out the tariffs.

But what if I had not yet satisfied a minimum stay requirement? In that case I wouldn't be permitted to change the ticket. What if I had someone else travelling with me on a companion ticket? What if the final return flight is now oversold, so I wouldn't be able to re-purchase a seat on the flight I'm already on? What if the client who I need to return to visit insists on purchasing me the ticket? There are a lot of potential problems that may arise by messing with the original ticket. It's much simpler just to buy a new one.

Of course the discussion is really somewhat academic. I'll buy whatever tickets I need to travel when and where I need to. It's not my intention to circumvent any rules.

Then you pay the difference between what you paid and what the fare would have been if you were to buy a ticket for that return date in the first place + any service charge.
If i recall correctly - AE companion ticket only require you to be travelling with them one flight. The only strict requirement is that routings must be exactly the same for both. Then that's too bad. That's not AC's fault.
Then that's an issue between your client and you. Not AC's problem to take care of such issue.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Are you kidding? Destina almost blows a cerebral fuse just by managing to complete a simple booking. Detecting an illegal booking combination would be beyond rocket science for them. Maybe after 100 years of R&D.

Yes. In this case it's much better to allow the airline to throw the ticket away for you.

But I don't think RD will last 100 years.

Just looking into buying tickets the ticket to go home -- someone explain to me why LHRYUL = 700CAD (AC) and LHRYOW = 975CAD (UA) -- AC is > 1000CAD?!? That's bloody murder!

And, does anyone have a clue of the loads on 869 and 848 / 862 in March and April? (I'm obviously trying to get overbooking compensation...)

Because BA flies LHR-YUL as well.

I realise this -- but does AC realise that people can just as easily get to YUL then take the train from Dorval to Ottawa on Via AirConnect?

So I guess this is an excellent example of price gauging because of no competition... and I could technically write to Bruce Hood?

I don't want to flame up this old topic but...

I'm not sure that AC could possibly have anything to object to with this situation...you are not trying to cheat AC out of any revenue with this itinerary and are well within your rights to buy a return ticket from your original destination to your point of origin.

I don't even consider this nesting, since the point of that is to get two return trips to a certain destination for less than you would pay by buying both tix in your home market.

Actually, I helped a client save about $800 on a 1-way fare 7 years ago by using that train between YOW and YUL. He had to get to YUL. Charter fares YVR-YUL were sold out and the AC Y fare was over $900. There were sell-offs available YVR-YOW for $129 at the time and that it what he gladly took. For that differential, 121 miles on a train was no hardship.

Epilogue: My office manager was very pissed at me because of the lost commission - the end of that month, I was fired, but from that office, I considered it a badge of honour.

If I was the client, I would have turned around and fired the agency the day after you left. Penny wise and pound foolish.

It's certainly a smarter move to save $250 each, but it's not truly "just as easily": there's a transfer, and a wait, and a 1.5-2hr train ride.

I would do it, but it's still less convenient than LHR-YOW non-stop.

andrew

Ah, but with the Renaissance trains, it has been cut down to 1:17. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif