FlyerGoldII

On Jan 6, I was looking at coming from LAX to YOW via YYZ on AC 792 and AC 470.

There was concordance between the AC web site and expertflyer.com on flight availability.

As a stand-alone flight, AC 470 has J1 availability - all other business class fare buckets and R class are zeroed out.

As a connecting flight, AC 470 has J4 availability; Z=3, R=0.

How can AC sell more than one discounted business class seat on this flight when it is a connecting flight, but only one full-fare (flexible) business class seat on this flight when it is a stand-alone flight. To put it another way, if all but one J class seats are booked on this flight, how can AC offer upto 4 seats in the business class cabin, when this flight is marketed as a connecting flight?

Sean Peever

Well technically speaking they can sell anything they want :P

FlyerGoldII

That is true. But what I am asking is how much real availability is there for the J class cabin on this flight.

if 4 seats, then it makes no sense that when AC 470 is displayed as a stand-alone flight, only one J fare bucket seat is available. I am sure that this is not the case.

If only 1 seat is available, then is AC hoping that if does sell 4 seats on this flight as a married segment, that the resulting 3 oversold seats will be cancelled. Otherwise, what will AC do, when the time comes, when the J class cabin is oversold - would AC downgrade those 3 passengers, if the Y class cabin had vacant seats (at least 3 of them)?

GJS - yow

I have reported the same thing with upgrade availability. YYZ-LHR shows "you will be waitlisted." However, YOW-YYZ-LHR shows immediate availability for upgrading on both segments.

bawm

AC switched to O&D based inventory management a few weeks ago now. Remember when you look at availability, you are not seeing loads and/or remaining seats - only what they will sell for that route at that moment.

bawm

Stranger

What's O&D?

D582

The first thing to remember is GDS availability only reflects the number of seats an airline wishes to sell in a particular booking class, not the amount of seats available.

The second thing to note is AC has worked over the past year to implement what is known as ODRMS or Origin-Destination Revenue Management System. I did a lengthy post on this before but the short version is the system can now return dynamically changing availability based on the entire itinerary, not just individual flight segments.

Using your example of AC470 on 6 Jan, as a standalone:

J1 C1 D0 Z0 P0 R0 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q9 V2 W0 G0 S0 T0 L0 A0 K0

In conjunction with AC792 from LAX:

J4 C4 D4 Z4 P3 R0 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q9 V8 W0 G0 S0 T0 L0 A0 K0

In conjunction with AC102 from YVR:

J3 C3 D2 Z0 P0 R0 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q9 V9 W5 G1 S0 T0 L0 A0 K0

Using another example of AC1886 from SAN to YYZ on the same date on its own:

J9 C9 D9 Z9 P9 R7 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q9 V9 W8 G6 S4 T0 L0 A0 K0

Now with 2 different connections to YOW

AC (**) 1886 SAN 11:55 → YYZ 19:35
J3 C3 D3 Z3 P2 R7 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q5 V3 W1 G0 S0 T0 L0 A0 K0

AC 470 YYZ 22:30 → YOW 23:36
J3 C3 D3 Z3 P2 R0 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q5 V3 W1 G0 S0 T0 L0 A0 K0

AC (**) 1886 SAN 11:55 → YYZ 19:35
J6 C6 D5 Z5 P4 R7 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q8 V7 W6 G5 S3 T0 L0 A0 K0

AC 472 YYZ 0:30 → YOW 1:36
J6 C6 D5 Z5 P4 R1 Y9 B9 M9 U9 H9 Q8 V7 W6 G5 S3 T0 L0 A0 K0

i59bravo

That would be this post in this thread. Interesting stuff, thank you, D582.

FlyerGoldII

So it looks like there are 4 seats on AC 470 that are not (yet) booked?

However, based on the other post, I would thought for the purposes of revenue optimization, there would be more availability on this flight if it was a stand-alone flight, rather than as a connecting segment. In fact, are you now saying precisely that in the post of the other thread; if there is a difference in seat availability on a flight when it is sold individually rather than as a married segment, the seat availability on the individual flight will be greater. This is not the case with my example.

How it affects me; I purchased a latitude fare, but I can not upgrade at the time of purchase (ie yesterday).

The AC web site displaying the flights from LAX to YOW - for this combination of flights displays that both flights are upgradeable (as for the combination of the 2 flights, Z fare bucket availability is there). I then try to upgrade, and it says this flight is not upgradeable. I go to the AC reservations agent, and she tells me that this flight (when looking up my itinerary) has J1 only availability, and therefore it is not upgradeable.

sing-along

Post Deleted.

I did not notice that D582 had defined "O&D"

Cheers

canadiancow

The issue is that if they sell a bunch of J YYZ-YOW fares, it makes it much harder to sell LHR-YYZ-YOW or NRT-YYZ-YOW J fares, because the people spending the big bucks would have to sit in the back on their connection.

So they're more willing to sell J seats if you have a longer flight to go along with the short connection.

Argonaut1000

D582 - excellent explanation re ODRMS

Does the ODRMS only apply to connections (<4H or <24H) or stopovers also?

FlyerGoldII

But for consistency, they should allow the upgrade if Z (or P for overseas flights) class is available, for latitude fares - even if R=0.

canadiancow

Why? It's the same logic. They'd rather sell a HKG-YYZ-YOW Latitude fare and let you upgrade that than sell a YYZ-YOW Latitude fare and let you upgrade that.

It's the same seat, but it can be much more lucrative to AC as part of certain itineraries.

FlyerGoldII

I am saying that the LAX-YYZ-YOW more lucrative ticket does not allow me to upgrade on the YYZ-YOW segment any more than the YYZ-YOW ticket allow me to upgrade on that segment.

What I am saying is that the current AC IT system does not allow the YYZ-YOW segment to be upgraded, no matter what - even if the Z and P availability is there on the YYZ-YOW segment as part of the combined ticket.