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-   -   Switching seats during a flight (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/1688816-switching-seats-during-flight.html)

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 4, 2015 6:59 pm


Originally Posted by yvr2011 (Post 25067451)
Just to be clear, I am booked in paid J as it is a business trip. After the booking, we decided that the family join so booked 3 seats in Y through AP. We decided to have me fly J to LHR so I can prep and rest for a busy week of presentations/meetings, and then have my wife sit in J for the entire flight home. Thanks for the suggestions!

You are technically stealing from your employer who is paying YOU to fly J and be in good shape upon your return also.

If my employees did this I might have to have a serious chat with them and they would be cut off from J class henceforth.

Unless you are self employed of course. In which case CRA would have an issue with your filing a false expense claim.

cperciva Jul 4, 2015 9:54 pm


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25070332)
You are technically stealing from your employer who is paying YOU to fly J and be in good shape upon your return also.

Not necessarily... it might just be a perk as (non-taxable) compensation for the fact that he's being required to travel. We don't know why his employer paid for him to fly back in J.


If my employees did this I might have to have a serious chat with them and they would be cut off from J class henceforth.
If one of my employees was performing poorly at his job as a result of not using the J seat I paid for, I would talk to them about their job performance. But if it didn't directly affect his job performance I wouldn't object; after all, having a happy family tends to make an employee happy, which tends to make said employee more productive.

sweeper20 Jul 4, 2015 10:00 pm


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25070332)
You are technically stealing from your employer who is paying YOU to fly J and be in good shape upon your return also.

If my employees did this I might have to have a serious chat with them and they would be cut off from J class henceforth.

Unless you are self employed of course. In which case CRA would have an issue with your filing a false expense claim.

Reading this reminds me how lucky I am to work where I do and not for someone like the above poster.

eigenvector Jul 4, 2015 10:41 pm


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25070741)
Reading this reminds me how lucky I am to work where I do and not for someone like the above poster.

I sure hope my boss never finds out about the time I bought a muffin with breakfast, then decided I didn't want it anymore and gave it to a homeless guy. The horror!

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 12:03 am


Originally Posted by eigenvector (Post 25070821)
I sure hope my boss never finds out about the time I bought a muffin with breakfast, then decided I didn't want it anymore and gave it to a homeless guy. The horror!

Don't laugh. Tax agencies are actually nickling and diming like this now.

Sorry, but as employer I pay for J I expect the employee to fly J. If a business purchases a funky MacBook they don't expect your kid to take it to school either, and a MacBook is a bit cheaper than a J fare.

I am pretty lax and hands off but stealing J airfare goes beyond petty amounts.

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 12:07 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25070741)
Reading this reminds me how lucky I am to work where I do and not for someone like the above poster.

I have virtually zero turnover and a recent informal staff meeting indicated that each and every one of my employees is happy to work for my company. Most my employees are highly mobile and highly independent engineers and experts

You can't make a judgment based on a single bit of info here.

I let employees fly J or F if the price makes sense. But not if they end up putting someone else in their seat.

canadiancow Jul 5, 2015 7:53 am


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25070970)
Don't laugh. Tax agencies are actually nickling and diming like this now.

Sorry, but as employer I pay for J I expect the employee to fly J. If a business purchases a funky MacBook they don't expect your kid to take it to school either, and a MacBook is a bit cheaper than a J fare.

I am pretty lax and hands off but stealing J airfare goes beyond petty amounts.

I think that's completely reasonable, and was thinking about the laptop example before getting to this post.

The company is paying to make you more productive. Not to make your SO happy.

sweeper20 Jul 5, 2015 8:54 am


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25070978)
I have virtually zero turnover and a recent informal staff meeting indicated that each and every one of my employees is happy to work for my company. Most my employees are highly mobile and highly independent engineers and experts

You can't make a judgment based on a single bit of info here.

I let employees fly J or F if the price makes sense. But not if they end up putting someone else in their seat.

I would also never accuse one of my employees of stealing because they switched seats.

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 8:58 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25072184)
I would also never accuse one of my employees of stealing because they switched seats.

Well, it is. Just as much as someone trying to self upgrade during flight would be stealing from the airline. Unless your employment contract specified J travel for family (some have such clauses. If your employer wants you in a J seat, that's where you need to stay. For both directions.

Unless you clear it with the employer first. Why does anyone need to ask this board for advice? It's up to them to ask the people or company paying for his or her seat.

If you are valuable enough to fly J the last thing I would want is to have you off sick with DVT.

sweeper20 Jul 5, 2015 9:03 am


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072201)
Well, it is. Just as much as someone trying to self upgrade during flight would be stealing from the airline. Unless your employment contract specified J travel for family (some have such clauses) and your employer wants you in a J seat, that's where you need to stay. For both directions.

Unless you clear it with the employer first. Why does anyone need to ask this board for advice? It's up to them to ask the people or company paying for his or her seat.

I guess I just don't have the band with that maybe you have to field questions like this...'hey boss, I'm calling to let you know I'm switching seats' You do have adults working for you, no? You do empower and trust them to work on your companies behalf? But you would want them to call and clear a seat switch? :rolleyes:

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 9:08 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25072221)
I guess I just don't have the band with that maybe you have to field questions like this...'hey boss, I'm calling to let you know I'm switching seats' You do have adults working for you, no? You do empower and trust them to work on your companies behalf? But you would want them to call and clear a seat switch? :rolleyes:

Because he paid thousands of bucks flying YOU in J. Not your wife or Gf or kids or grandma or golden retriever.

If you want your wife to be in J then you can use upgrades, points or cash to put her there. Or negotiate an employment agreement entitling your travel companion to fly J on the company dime.

canadiancow Jul 5, 2015 9:50 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25072221)
I guess I just don't have the band with that maybe you have to field questions like this...'hey boss, I'm calling to let you know I'm switching seats' You do have adults working for you, no? You do empower and trust them to work on your companies behalf? But you would want them to call and clear a seat switch? :rolleyes:


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072240)
Because he paid thousands of bucks flying YOU in J. Not your wife or Gf or kids or grandma or golden retriever.

If you want your wife to be in J then you can use upgrades, points or cash to put her there. Or negotiate an employment agreement entitling your travel companion to fly J on the company dime.

Exactly.

"Why do you look so tired?"
"I gave my J seat to my wife and sat in Y."

is the equivalent of

"Can I borrow your laptop for this presentation?"
"Where's yours?"
"I erased all company information on it and I gave it to my wife because hers was old and crappy."

Neither are acceptable.

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 9:53 am


Originally Posted by canadiancow (Post 25072395)
Exactly.

"Why do you look so tired?"
"I gave my J seat to my wife and sat in Y."

is the equivalent of

"Can I borrow your laptop for this presentation?"
"Where's yours?"
"I erased all company information on it and I gave it to my wife because hers was old and crappy."

Neither are acceptable.

Next iteration will be to sell their J seat ... To a colleague or stranger. Even by giving it to the wise or GF no doubt there is "consideration" involved

sweeper20 Jul 5, 2015 9:59 am


Originally Posted by canadiancow (Post 25072395)
Exactly.

"Why do you look so tired?"
"I gave my J seat to my wife and sat in Y."

is the equivalent of

"Can I borrow your laptop for this presentation?"
"Where's yours?"
"I erased all company information on it and I gave it to my wife because hers was old and crappy."

Neither are acceptable.

Please tell me you really don't think that giving your J seat to your wife for part of a trip and intentionally deleting company data and giving away your company owned laptop to your wife are the same. I'm really having trouble believing either of you are actually in management of any kind.

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 10:05 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25072425)
Please tell me you really don't think that giving your J seat to your wife for part of a trip and intentionally deleting company data and giving away your company owned laptop to your wife are the same. I'm really having trouble believing either of you are actually in management of any kind.

It might be worse. A laptop is likely a lot cheaper than a J seat and can be replaced. Company data is backed up. Alertness during crucial business activity is irreplaceable.

You clearly have no need to fly business. Therefore why not suggest to your employer that instead of J they pay for 2 Y so you can sit with your wife.

If you actually engaged with me in this argument as my employee you might end up being the first in 12 years i have fired.

sweeper20 Jul 5, 2015 10:06 am


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072449)
It might be worse. A laptop is likely a lot cheaper than a J seat and can be replaced. Company data is backed up. Alertness during crucial business activity is irreplaceable.

You clearly have no need to fly business. Therefore why not suggest to your employer that instead of J they pay for 2 Y so you can sit with your wife.

If you actually engaged with me in this argument as my employee you might end up being the first in 12 years have fired.

No fear of being fired, I could/would never work for you, so we are both safe.

canadiancow Jul 5, 2015 10:31 am


Originally Posted by sweeper20 (Post 25072425)
Please tell me you really don't think that giving your J seat to your wife for part of a trip and intentionally deleting company data and giving away your company owned laptop to your wife are the same. I'm really having trouble believing either of you are actually in management of any kind.


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072449)
It might be worse. A laptop is likely a lot cheaper than a J seat and can be replaced. Company data is backed up. Alertness during crucial business activity is irreplaceable.

You clearly have no need to fly business. Therefore why not suggest to your employer that instead of J they pay for 2 Y so you can sit with your wife.

If you actually engaged with me in this argument as my employee you might end up being the first in 12 years i have fired.

It's very rare I agree with All best (has this EVER happened before?), but in this, I feel like I can't even add anything to his argument, because I agree 100%.

If you're flying back Friday afternoon in J, and then have the weekend off, I can kind of accept the argument. But if you have a meeting the morning after, it's not acceptable.

eos75 Jul 5, 2015 11:54 am


Originally Posted by canadiancow (Post 25072538)
If you're flying back Friday afternoon in J, and then have the weekend off, I can kind of accept the argument. But if you have a meeting the morning after, it's not acceptable.

I don't think that many people would disagree that if your employer has paid for business class to fly overnight and attend meetings the next day, that you are obliged to use that seat and it would be completely unacceptable (gross misconduct) to give it away. However the OP's intention is to use the J seat for the flight to LHR, and switch out on the return:


Originally Posted by yvr2011 (Post 25067451)
Just to be clear, I am booked in paid J as it is a business trip. After the booking, we decided that the family join so booked 3 seats in Y through AP. We decided to have me fly J to LHR so I can prep and rest for a busy week of presentations/meetings, and then have my wife sit in J for the entire flight home. Thanks for the suggestions!

Whilst it's clear what's appropriate or not for the outbound flight, the return flight is less clear-cut. There are a few scenarios where it may be reasonable to do what he's suggesting and be a complete non-issue from the employer's point of view. We don't know enough to judge on that, and it's completely between the OP and his employer; and wasn't really what he asking for advice about in this thread in any case.

I used to work for a company that regularly flew staff in J from YVR to LHR for week-long client meetings / workshops - typically flying out on Sunday evening, start work Monday afternoon, fly back on Friday morning. So although there was a definite expectation about hitting the ground running upon arrival in London, I can't imagine that particular company would worry about switching seats on the return flight at the end of the week.

eigenvector Jul 5, 2015 1:38 pm


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072240)
Because he paid thousands of bucks flying YOU in J. Not your wife or Gf or kids or grandma or golden retriever.

If you want your wife to be in J then you can use upgrades, points or cash to put her there. Or negotiate an employment agreement entitling your travel companion to fly J on the company dime.

Your point is well taken and I can't disagree. A benefit provided to an employee for a business purpose shouldn't be appropriated for the benefit of the employee's family instead. I think where we diverge is your characterization of it as stealing. It's unacceptable and depending on the exact situation could be grounds for dismissal, but it's not a criminal matter. Mostly semantics I know, but this is probably where most people felt your language was a little strong.

yvr76 Jul 5, 2015 2:44 pm

Have to agree that if you're flying in J on company dime, putting your spouse in that seat is not acceptable. The company is flying you in J so you can arrive well rested and be more productive. Putting someone else in that seat defeats the purpose.

FlyerTalker683455 Jul 5, 2015 5:40 pm


Originally Posted by eigenvector (Post 25073218)
Your point is well taken and I can't disagree. A benefit provided to an employee for a business purpose shouldn't be appropriated for the benefit of the employee's family instead. I think where we diverge is your characterization of it as stealing. It's unacceptable and depending on the exact situation could be grounds for dismissal, but it's not a criminal matter. Mostly semantics I know, but this is probably where most people felt your language was a little strong.

Stealing used loosely. I think it's worse than someone swiping a chocolate bar at 711, but I am not a judge or lawyer. But my opinion as an employer has been given. I would not call the police, to be sure. But upon a second offense it might well be grounds for dismissal and clawback of the fare.

I did qualify my final reply by stating that the poster ought to clear it with their employer.

yvr2011 Nov 9, 2015 7:08 pm

Forgot about this post, just came across it and I thought I would chime in.

On the flight home, I asked the SD about switching. He told me "No problem" but please do it after the first service. We did so and the crew were very nice to my wife after we switched.
Now, I can't believe the discussion here about stealing. Certainly there are habits that could constitute bad behaviour but each situation is different. BTW it was discussed with my boss (CEO) and there was no concern. I was not seeking approval.
Secondly, if people feel that this is stealing, then do you feel that accumulating FF points and using them for personal travel is stealing? Should you not use them (earned from business flights) to book company trips saving the company money? Would you fire someone if they did this? If they bought a toaster with AP points, they essentially bought the toaster with company funds. Fire them? Do you give your lounge passes to staff that do not qualify (I actually do)?
The rare perk of having a spouse fly one leg should not be an issue with a company that looks at the big picture and understands what makes their employees happy. They know that my wife has to take care of the kids on her own several (several) times a year because I have to travel. They know the family eats dinner without me at times because I have work events to go to in the evenings. We're all adults, we trust each other to do the right thing.

yvr2011 Nov 9, 2015 7:36 pm


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25072406)
Next iteration will be to sell their J seat ... To a colleague or stranger. Even by giving it to the wise or GF no doubt there is "consideration" involved

Missed this one. Consideration? Seriously? Is that what you think is needed to get lucky? How about just being considerate. Sad.

FlyerTalker683455 Nov 10, 2015 6:08 am


Originally Posted by yvr2011 (Post 25688702)
Forgot about this post, just came across it and I thought I would chime in.

On the flight home, I asked the SD about switching. He told me "No problem" but please do it after the first service. We did so and the crew were very nice to my wife after we switched.
Now, I can't believe the discussion here about stealing. Certainly there are habits that could constitute bad behaviour but each situation is different. BTW it was discussed with my boss (CEO) and there was no concern. I was not seeking approval.
Secondly, if people feel that this is stealing, then do you feel that accumulating FF points and using them for personal travel is stealing? Should you not use them (earned from business flights) to book company trips saving the company money? Would you fire someone if they did this? If they bought a toaster with AP points, they essentially bought the toaster with company funds. Fire them? Do you give your lounge passes to staff that do not qualify (I actually do)?
The rare perk of having a spouse fly one leg should not be an issue with a company that looks at the big picture and understands what makes their employees happy. They know that my wife has to take care of the kids on her own several (several) times a year because I have to travel. They know the family eats dinner without me at times because I have work events to go to in the evenings. We're all adults, we trust each other to do the right thing.

If I fly an employee in J it is for a reason. If they give away their seat they might never fly J again. If their J swap has adverse effects on their performance they might be dismissed with cause.

FlyerTalker683455 Nov 10, 2015 6:10 am


Originally Posted by yvr2011 (Post 25688797)
Missed this one. Consideration? Seriously? Is that what you think is needed to get lucky? How about just being considerate. Sad.

I don't think so. But lots of posters on FT mention they would be in the dog house if they didn't offer to give up the J seat for their better half. So don't look at me. I don't give my J seat to my wife. She usually has her own and if not she is small enough to fit in a Y seat. I am not. (Tall not fat)

SparseFlyer Nov 10, 2015 8:59 am

Consideration for getting laid? Preposterous.

My wife is lucky I lay down the pipe on her.

canadiancow Nov 10, 2015 10:05 am


Originally Posted by Allvest (Post 25690593)
I don't think so. But lots of posters on FT mention they would be in the dog house if they didn't offer to give up the J seat for their better half. So don't look at me. I don't give my J seat to my wife. She usually has her own and if not she is small enough to fit in a Y seat. I am not. (Tall not fat)

Hah. That DOES come up a lot :p


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