Jumper Jack

So yeah, who was right?
I will let the picture speak for itself...

I was E50K on a business reward but booked in Y, here's where I ended up....


In the end, two pax and a pilot got the upgrade. I was Number 6.

canadiancow

I'm absolutely shocked that Ben was right.

He doesn't even work at the airport!

pitz

Pilot was probably contractually entitled. Without further information, the behavior I suggested (years ago) can neither be proven nor disproven in this case.

Its always a risk, without a confirmed reservation, if you're going to be travelling or not, or travelling in the class of service that you 'paid' for with an AP reservation.

AC is a lot more aggressive these days in dropping J pricing to the market, rather than flying seats with upgraders. Pricing algorithms obviously don't give one iota about AP tickets booked but not confirmed in J.

guessaaa

How does all this change with a J reward ticket on AC and only PY (N) confirmed seats? Is confirmed PY treated higher than revenue Y fare classes but below revenue PY? Or is it only above X fare but still under all revenue Y fares?

pitz

You're really not competing with revenue fares except for people who purchase J fares or confirmed R-space or LMU upgraders. You hold a Business Class reservation for which certain segments could only be confirmed in PY (N). As stated here or elsewhere, you should have priority over someone with a Business Class award reservation who only has their segment confirmed in X at the moment should it come to a tie breaker.

Your 'competition' is revenue J passengers, LMU buyers / LMU auctions, confirmed R upgraders, contractually entitled pilots, and certain airline employee passes. All of which will be accommodated prior to your waitlisted J seat going through.

So if J is not 100% full, you are absolutely entitled to a seat. But if J is full, it won't be because of op-upgrades or non-R-space revenue Y upgraders. It will be because they legitimately have filled the cabin with paying J passengers, confirmed R upgraders, LMU's, entitled AC staff, etc.

ChrisA330

Pax waitlisted in PY are a higher priority that waitlisted pax in Y. Not sure how you'd be sorted among any other PY wait listed for an upgrade to J.

canadiancow

Ignore pitz, he keeps talking about this after being shown he's wrong with anecdotal evidence (most recently from @Jumper Jack), as well as statements from employees of AC.

You will be above everyone confirmed in Y.
You will be above everyone confirmed in PY with your status or lower.
You will be below everyone confirmed in PY with higher status than you.

Unlike a revenue business class ticket, where the fare basis code for this segment would be P7ABC or similar, Aeroplan has only purchased PY class from AC, so the fare basis code is NBP00 (*I've never booked PY through Aeroplan, so I'm actually unsure, but Y/J/F are XBP00, IBP00, and OBP00). So in their system, you are not "paid J". You are "paid PY, entitled to sit in J", the same way eUpgrades are entitled to sit in the higher cabin.

guessaaa

Indeed, the fare basis for the leg is NBP00/PARTNER all the other legs are IBP00/PARTNER. Thanks for your explanation and insight.

pitz

Jumper Jack's message didn't provide any anecdotal evidence. In that case a pilot and potentially two other non-confirmed J's (whether revenue or reward or staff on positive space J passes) picked up the remaining seating. What are you talking about? And no AC employee has provided a statement to the contrary of the actual behavior of AC when it comes to such customers. If you're referring to AY's post a long time ago, your interpretation is quite wrong as it refers to an upgrade, not a waitlisting process..

Partially true. A revenue ticket in PY is junior to a J-Award confirmed in PY irrespective of status. The only upgrade pathway for such a ticket would be LMU or R-space through an eUpgrade, in which case it would become a confirmed-J.

Sigh, wrong. AP has contracted for J from AC, but the segment could only be confirmed in PY in the case of a AP business reward redemption. Your allegation simply doesn't make any sense since it is well known that people on AP J tickets without confirmation in J routinely are accommodated in J space when available. Particularly on domestic routes which fly chronically devoid of revenue J.

This is wrong. A business redemption that could only be confirmed into PY is considered to be a form of paid J, but without a confirmation in such. That's why such goes onto a waitlist, not an upgrade list. The behavior is "paid J, only confirmed in PY", has absolutely nothing to do with eUpgrade behavior, and does not compete with non-confirmed eUpgraders. Some SE100k MM can be sitting at the gate with their eUpgrade coupons at the ready, and if R=0, and one seat left, they will sit in the back while no-status Joe Blow cashing out credit card points on a mixed redemption will sit in J.

Very risky as a strategy though, especially on the international and even domestic widebodies for which AC has no qualms of selling LMU's or even P for cheap to fill the front cabin. Used to work much more reliably when the J cabins were oversized relative to actual demand, and AC wasn't aggressive in pricing them to be full. Short-notice P is often cheaper or only a few bucks more than what is available in the back cabin.

expert7700

you mean waitlist.....for upgrade

Disagree. If what you say is correct, a paid or redemption ticket, only confirmable in Y, would come with J benefits such as free/reduced same day change/standby. In some cases even lounge access or business class luggage allowance. But an Aeroplan J redemption with a Y AC leg doesn't. It just allows you a space available upgrade.

Say you start your trip in HNL on a 'business' redemption where you are in Y, followed by a short J segment later in the trip. You will only be allowed the economy baggage allowance.

Or, try hitting IRROPS with a J redemption confirmed in Y. guess what cabin (Y)ou get reconfirmed in?

rankourabu

I have a non-status client on an Aeroplan ticket
NRT-ORD (J) then overnight ORD-YYZ (Y)

Will they have to pay for bags on the AC segment?

pitz

Shouldn't have to. But YMMV with agents who actually know the rules. They should ask to be verified that they're on the waitlist for Business class when they check in at ORD. They should appear basically at the top of the standby list if using the app. The app consolidates the waitlist and the standby list with waitlisters being superior to standby.

pitz

I've never heard of anything to the contrary. MLL access is provided on those segments to those possessing a Business Class reservation, even if not confirmable in I. Much like if you fly YYZ-YVR-YYJ on a J ticket, you get YVR MLL access. Or YQR-YYC-LHR, you get to use the YQR MLL and get the full J baggage allowance on your first segment. If you live in an all-Y city, all AP redemptions that have business class segments, by definition, are going to be mixed redemptions. The rules on AC metal are that of the ticket, not the individual segments.

Not AFAIK if its all AC metal we're talking about. If its UA HNL-SFO (X/Y), SFO-YYZ (I/J) on an AP redemption, then there might be an issue since UA is only obligated to provide you with Y service which includes the baggage allowance. But if its HNL-YYC-YWG-YYZ, all you need to do is confirm YYC-YWG in I, and the whole ticket becomes a Business Class AP reservation. AP of course, always demands additional points and usually money for this as 'payment'.

Downline interline carriers are usually expected to adhere to the baggage policies of the 'originating' carrier when bags are tendered, so if you did the reverse, ie: YYZ-SFO (I/J) SFO-HNL (X/Y), UA will not magically collect a fee for the bag even although a SFO-originating passenger on a domestic Y reward flight ordinarily would have bag fees.

Of course they have no obligation to re-confirm you in J as you never were confirmed in J in the first place (although they certainly could change such a segment to to I inventory if such was available, and confirm you!). And in IRROPS they might just create you a brand new ticket in full-Y with a new routing to replace the broken segments. As they did in my most recent experience with IRROPs on an AP redemption. It would be no surprise to me if such a ticket doesn't inherit the AP fare rules, but is merely generated to get your butt on a plane (and has no cash value). Which means you might have some explaining to do at the MLL about your 'situation' if you desire access.

On such generated replacement tickets, they will lift the coupons associated with the IRROP'ed flights from the original ticket, and a notation of "PAID by 014xxxxxxxxx-x", referring to those lifted coupons will be generated, but the replacement ticket will be full-Y. Hence, the LT07 meal entitlement, preferred seating, and free bags that will appear on such associated with a full-Y reservation (and even eUpgradability for status pax at full-Y levels). The back office reconciles accordingly, but yes, you may very well lose your J waitlisting under such circumstance unless one reminds the IRROPS rebooker that the originally booked ticket was J-eligible on AC metal.

pitz

They go onto the PY waitlist, not the upgrade list. Its not an upgrade, its merely travelling in their 'paid-for' class of service. Sometimes its not fully automatic, so its always best, as a passenger, to be pro-active in ensuring that a PY (or J)-eligible reservation has the unconfirmed segments waitlisted appropriately. In the AC app, the waitlist and the upgrade list are consolidated, but waitlisters with an entitlement to the PY or J cabins will always be at the top.

No, they won't be on an upgrade list, they'll be on a waitlist, and they will clear in preference to nearly all other non-confirmed passengers including SE MM's on full Y tickets with eUpgrades at the ready looking for an upgrade but unable to confirm due to lack of R inventory. The PY waitlist clearing into PY is nearly a certainty unless AC is particularly aggressive in LMU'ing or selling J and PY seats. Possible, yes, but relatively unusual to sell both the J and PY cabins out completely.

Expectation-wise, I wouldn't bet my life/marriage/sanity on it, but chances are very high. Especially in light of the alleged poor demand for the PY cabin and its failure to capture incremental yield.

That sounds likely as AC generally wants to accommodate its customers who have 'paid' for tickets and are waitlisted. I can't fathom a situation where PY goes out full with waitlisters being forced to fly in Y, while J has empty seats. They might not do it for 'upgraders' though as 'upgraders' do not have an entitlement unless they were able to obtain confirmed seating through R space, through a paid LMU, bid-upgrade, etc. It may be in AC's business interest to restrict upgrades on any given flight, a capability Revenue Management certainly can (and allegedly does) exercise, but they will never fly an operable seat empty if there's someone waitlisted for it.

Bonaventure

Does anyone know if a Business AP ticket confirmed into economy for the AC leg is also eligible to be moved into PY if its available at check in? (this flight looks quite full in J and there seems to be a lot of people ahead of this non-elite booking) Or does it only entitle you, strangely, to be moved 2 classes up and not 1 class up!