AC Presence on FT

Old Jun 30, 15, 6:27 pm
  #1576  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Glen Abbey
Posts: 633
How nice to have you back, Ben. I, for one, appreciate the effort you take to wade through the good-through-vicious stuff and still give us well-reasoned comments.
hazcaddy is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 6:29 pm
  #1577  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Mississauga Ontario
Posts: 3,822
Originally Posted by Allvest View Post
Ben L is a rock star!
Most rock stars are damaged, and inherently unstable.

We should parse this line in what he said: ".....by contributing more than mere lip service....."

His name is Ben Lipsey. He's talking about lipservice.

I would suppose this would involve some deep inclination in his youth, that involves things around lips and his name, and he is just damaged in his head space ...

Oh. Wait.

Ben! Welcome back!
InTheAirGuy is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 10:05 pm
  #1578  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,200
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
Do you remember this? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23656272-post1001.html

Not babblespeak. I recall you just didn't like what you were hearing, and I felt the back and forth was starting to get pedantic. I have never used 'babblespeak' while my name has been green, and I don't intend to start.

Not sure how many times I have to state this (or even why I bother), but my presence on here is not some sort of experiment to placate our frequent flyers on here, nor is it a conspiracy. You guys make up literally less than 0.0000001% of our customer base. I am on here because I believe in it, because I have been active on here for almost 10 years and remember how frustrating mindless speculation can be, and because I believe in respecting the collective knowledge that is shared on here every day by contributing more than mere lipservice - most of you guys 'get it' and understand how things work, but there are times when things do get confusing. I personally feel it's helpful to clear up what I can, not to mentioning offering to lend a hand where and when the system fails.

Just my $0.02. But of course, feel free to continue discussing the value or rationale of my posts.
I don't think you're 2 cents is worth anything, at least not based on the math above, which is pretty much babble speak.

You state as fact that participants in FT account for 0.0000001% of your customer base. For the sake of argument let's assume your customer base is the 38,526,000 annual passengers YOWie noted, and furthermore, let's assume that every passenger is a unique passenger -- that is, every passenger purchased 1 ticket and 1 ticket only. None of those 38 million took more than a single flight.

If that's the case, then apparently entire FT/AC membership consists of approximately 1/25th of a person, which is clearly absurd. But worse, you double down on the babble speak by claiming "literally".

Again for the purposes of this argument, if we assume that there are 385 participants on the FT/AC forum (which I think is reasonable) then your numbers are out by a factor of 10,000. If we guestimate that on average each of those participants takes 10 flights a year (again, probably not unreasonable) then you are out by a factor of 100,000 -- because for each additional flight, that FT participant becomes multiple passengers of that original 38 million.

So if you're going to claim something as fact that is out by a factor of 10,000 to 100,000, or perhaps even more, then I think babblespeak is a fair assessment.

But perhaps worse, is the cavalier dismissal of the FT cadre as a minuscule, insignificant, and inconsequential group. Given the number of times this group has effected changes in AC policies, starting way back with errorplan right up to the minor improvements in benefits past 100K this year. In any case, that dismissive attitude is unlikely win over anyone.

Finally, if the FT forum is so inconsequential, it begs the question as to why so many Air Canada employees, all the way up to senior execs, would be wasting their time here.
KenHamer is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 10:29 pm
  #1579  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Flew over the Equator 55 times last 3 years
Programs: LANPASS Comodoro (Emerald), others
Posts: 2,957
Originally Posted by YOWie View Post
WOW. I always wondered what percentage of AC's customer base was on FT but I never thought it would be that small. I always figured something like 100 FTers taking 20 flights each out of the 38,526,000 passengers carried in 2014. My guesstimate comes out at something like 0.005%. Still immaterial in business terms but I've always felt that we were the proverbial canaries in the coal mine.

PS Count me among those that appreciate your presence here.
0.0000001% or even 0.005%. Sure gives me the warm and fuzzies to know thy place in the pecking order.

Of course, granting each of 30000 AC employees an opinion, one individual's opinion represents 0.003333% of the collective.
bingocallerb22 is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 10:40 pm
  #1580  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC E50K (*G) WS Gold | SPG/Fairmont Plat Hilton/Hyatt Diamond Marriott Silver | National Exec Elite
Posts: 19,284
Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
Finally, if the FT forum is so inconsequential, it begs the question as to why so many Air Canada employees, all the way up to senior execs, would be wasting their time here.
<sigh> AC senior execs no longer spend any time here.

As was mentioned previously, if you have such an issue with stuff, just don't tune in?
superangrypenguin is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 10:43 pm
  #1581  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Offline
Programs: No pride in status
Posts: 4,153
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
Do you remember this? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23656272-post1001.html

Not babblespeak. I recall you just didn't like what you were hearing, and I felt the back and forth was starting to get pedantic. I have never used 'babblespeak' while my name has been green, and I don't intend to start.

Not sure how many times I have to state this (or even why I bother), but my presence on here is not some sort of experiment to placate our frequent flyers on here, nor is it a conspiracy. You guys make up literally less than 0.0000001% of our customer base. I am on here because I believe in it, because I have been active on here for almost 10 years and remember how frustrating mindless speculation can be, and because I believe in respecting the collective knowledge that is shared on here every day by contributing more than mere lipservice - most of you guys 'get it' and understand how things work, but there are times when things do get confusing. I personally feel it's helpful to clear up what I can, not to mentioning offering to lend a hand where and when the system fails.

Just my $0.02. But of course, feel free to continue discussing the value or rationale of my posts.
I am trying to get my head around this. There must be at least 50 active FT members on this forum. (and each one of us probably has 20-50 more just lurking and reading....so there are alot of eyeballs here that aren't counted as active members).

Let's just say only 20 represent the 0.0000001 % of AC customers. that's 20/0.000000001 or something like out of a total of 2 Billion or 20 Billion AC customers (I lost track of the zeros and my calculator just gives me an Error it's so absurd).

Ben... this is EXACTLY the type of insulting and ridiculous nonsensical statements I have been upset with. YQ being nonfuel fuel surcharge, Aeroplan Taxes being non tax taxes, SDC being not allowed allowable, Dirty planes being uncleanably cleaned, and policy statements being subject to notice without notice, $17000 non fares being non mistake erroneously loaded purchaseable, and 25% discounts being only fare-applicable to unadvertised base fares resulting in $8.72 discount on a $1100 ticket etc etc etc., not to mention the general BS about how "airlines" calculate their earnings which ignore the cost of actually operating the planes they fly, while charging the passengers up to double the actual fuel they consume while they fly outside the annual earnings statements.

Yea, only a rockstar can be loved for this. Lips moving, lipsyncing, lips on holidays, lips on Ben, and Ben Lipsey...

I hope you have a sense of humour today. I do feel for you. You were off by at least a factor of 5000, which makes your 2 cents worth about the price of a SDC fee now. I'll try to pay my 2 cents worth next time I need to fly earlier in the day and see how that works. I am sure they'll understand.
Allvest is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 10:45 pm
  #1582  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC*E50 (*A Gold), Accor Platinum, Bonvoy Gold Elite, Hilton Gold, Amex Platinum, NEXUS, Global Entry
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
If that's the case, then apparently entire FT/AC membership consists of approximately 1/25th of a person, which is clearly absurd. But worse, you double down on the babble speak by claiming "literally"
My math painted a similar picture. I think Ben's point would've benefited from the use of the word "figuratively" rather than "literally." However...

Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
perhaps worse, is the cavalier dismissal of the FT cadre as a minuscule, insignificant, and inconsequential group.
Many of our fellow AC FTers constantly argue that we are indeed a minuscule, insignificant and inconsequential subset of AC's customer base. That our business is easily replaced and our arguably "high" spend is meaningless in the overall scheme of AC's revenue.

On the other hand, I'd like to think that, as a group, we bring some value to this forum and to AC. I'd like to think that that's why we're all here, including Ben et al.

It may not always seem like it, but I absolutely appreciate everyone's presence on FT.
ffsim is offline  
Old Jun 30, 15, 11:45 pm
  #1583  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: YKF
Programs: AC Elite 50K, Amex AP Plat, Choice Privileges, National Exec Elite, Via Prefrence
Posts: 2,996
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
Do you remember this? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/23656272-post1001.html

Not babblespeak. I recall you just didn't like what you were hearing, and I felt the back and forth was starting to get pedantic. I have never used 'babblespeak' while my name has been green, and I don't intend to start.

Not sure how many times I have to state this (or even why I bother), but my presence on here is not some sort of experiment to placate our frequent flyers on here, nor is it a conspiracy. You guys make up literally less than 0.0000001% of our customer base. I am on here because I believe in it, because I have been active on here for almost 10 years and remember how frustrating mindless speculation can be, and because I believe in respecting the collective knowledge that is shared on here every day by contributing more than mere lipservice - most of you guys 'get it' and understand how things work, but there are times when things do get confusing. I personally feel it's helpful to clear up what I can, not to mentioning offering to lend a hand where and when the system fails.

Just my $0.02. But of course, feel free to continue discussing the value or rationale of my posts.
Such a sad comment to make just past your year anniversary on here as AC's spokesperson when in practice AC uses FT on a near daily basis for (free) market research, competitive intelligence, legal research, corporate security,revenue optimization 'enhancements', market testing, operational monitoring from departments across the board. And just because they don't have a green name doesn't mean they're not there. To downplay this tribe/forum in such a fashion, clearly shows how siloed your job is in such a top down culture. Plausible deniability is never an effective public relations strategy unless you're running for office.

Last edited by tcook052; Jul 1, 15 at 9:49 pm Reason: off topic
kwflyer is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 12:41 am
  #1584  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: sqrt(-united states of apologist)
Programs: sqrt(-school of apologist)
Posts: 5,364
What am I reading?

All I see is that Ben Lipsey has the letter i in his name, the 9th letter of the alphabet.

It also has the letter b, the second word of the alphabet.

But there is also a p, which is like an upside down b. So like b divided by p is like 2/2 = 1.

These are 2 letters, so there is 1 twice.

Ben Lipsey is hidden code for 9/11.

Illuminati confirmed.
SparseFlyer is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 4:25 am
  #1585  
formerly with Air Canada
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
Posts: 1,752
This is perhaps the most pedantic response to a clear shot at hyperbole I have ever seen (okay, figuratively would have been a better word, but according to definition 1.1 of Oxford dictionary I was in the clear http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...lish/literally). Gold stars all around.

Back to regularly scheduled programming.

Last edited by Ben Lipsey; Jul 1, 15 at 4:50 am
Ben Lipsey is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 4:27 am
  #1586  
formerly with Air Canada
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: CDG/AMS
Posts: 1,752
Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
I don't think you're 2 cents is worth anything, at least not based on the math above, which is pretty much babble speak.

You state as fact that participants in FT account for 0.0000001% of your customer base. For the sake of argument let's assume your customer base is the 38,526,000 annual passengers YOWie noted, and furthermore, let's assume that every passenger is a unique passenger -- that is, every passenger purchased 1 ticket and 1 ticket only. None of those 38 million took more than a single flight.

If that's the case, then apparently entire FT/AC membership consists of approximately 1/25th of a person, which is clearly absurd. But worse, you double down on the babble speak by claiming "literally".

Again for the purposes of this argument, if we assume that there are 385 participants on the FT/AC forum (which I think is reasonable) then your numbers are out by a factor of 10,000. If we guestimate that on average each of those participants takes 10 flights a year (again, probably not unreasonable) then you are out by a factor of 100,000 -- because for each additional flight, that FT participant becomes multiple passengers of that original 38 million.

So if you're going to claim something as fact that is out by a factor of 10,000 to 100,000, or perhaps even more, then I think babblespeak is a fair assessment.

But perhaps worse, is the cavalier dismissal of the FT cadre as a minuscule, insignificant, and inconsequential group. Given the number of times this group has effected changes in AC policies, starting way back with errorplan right up to the minor improvements in benefits past 100K this year.
This group has very rarely, if ever, been the direct cause of any changes to AC policies except in cases where we feel improvements can be made (eg. Standby for YVR/YYC/YEG) - I can assure you things like the changes to benefits after 100k were not effected because of FT.

In any case, that dismissive attitude is unlikely win over anyone.

Finally, if the FT forum is so inconsequential, it begs the question as to why so many Air Canada employees, all the way up to senior execs, would be wasting their time here.
Maybe because we are people who love the industry, just like the rest of you.

Last edited by Ben Lipsey; Jul 1, 15 at 4:46 am
Ben Lipsey is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 4:51 am
  #1587  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Offline
Programs: No pride in status
Posts: 4,153
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
This is perhaps the most pedantic response to a clear shot at hyperbole I have ever seen (okay, figuratively would have been a better word, but according to definition 1.1 of Oxford dictionary I was in the clear http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...lish/literally). Gold stars all around.

Back to regularly scheduled programming.
Alright. Can you let us know how the cleaning SOPs are coming along?
Allvest is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 5:16 am
  #1588  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: YVR
Programs: ACSEMM QRGold SPGLifetimePlat FairmontPlat HyattD AMEXCenturion SerenaPlat TalkBoard Founding Member
Posts: 8,962
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
I can assure you things like the changes to benefits after 100k were not effected because of FT.
I have real trouble believing that FT members didn't have some impact.

What was the source of the idea for the change?
Dorian is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 5:57 am
  #1589  
Formerly known as tireman77
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Programs: ACA
Posts: 4,506
If I may add some perspective to Ben's percentage, of Ken's estimated 385 FTers on the AC forum, I would gather that a dozen or so make all the 'noise'. If you consider that qualifier, the number becomes considerably more realistic.

And I believe the point is simply that FT, regardless of number, represents a minuscule part of the customer base, who, on top of their actual numbers are also those who get caught up on every little single detail of a flight and tend to blow everything so completely out of proportion that one needs to stand 1000m away to gain an iota or perspective. I frankly feel more and more that its bordering on neurosis. Perhaps FT needs a professional counselling forum?

I do not claim to speak for Ben or anyone at AC, but what I read in his message is: FTers are no where near as important as they think they are. I don't even think they can see the line of their relevance from within the forum. AC is attempting to offer insight, but many people here (read the dozen who make the noise) and sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "La-La-La-La-La".

What irks me the most and ultimately drives me to post things like this is that by being surrounded by this crowd, those who have valid and constructive feedback for AC are getting drowned out in the noise and tossed away as: "Forget it...its from Flyertalk...you can just ignore that". The proverbial logical baby is getting tossed away with the feces filled bathwater.

Why don't you just come out and say it: You don't want AC here so you can continue to get riled up in a frenzy of condemnation and speculation. Some of us enjoyed the AC input, even if we did not like the message, but I guess the noise will win over once again.
PLeblond is offline  
Old Jul 1, 15, 6:12 am
  #1590  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Flew over the Equator 55 times last 3 years
Programs: LANPASS Comodoro (Emerald), others
Posts: 2,957
Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
This group has very rarely, if ever, been the direct cause of any changes to AC policies except in cases where we feel improvements can be made (eg. Standby for YVR/YYC/YEG) - I can assure you things like the changes to benefits after 100k were not effected because of FT.
So the statements in this thread that you guys were listening to us was a lie then?
bingocallerb22 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search Engine: