AC Presence on FT

Old Jan 6, 15, 6:25 pm
  #1486  
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Originally Posted by PLeblond View Post
I found it odd that it was closed, as they posted on it as recently as Dec 22nd and Ben has posted some things in January. Kind of weird that the mods shut it down, unless they know something we don't

If that is the case, then I must say that the AC forum just got considerably less interesting and enormously less useful.
FT has been considerably more interesting and enormously more useful long before AC/airlines (and is actually why they showed up in the first place due to FT's remarkableness).

Its amazing how many people think FT was invented for the airline's use (hint: it wasn't).

Comments like that, are highly symptomanic of apologist thinking.

Last edited by kwflyer; Jan 6, 15 at 7:13 pm
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Old Jan 6, 15, 6:39 pm
  #1487  
 
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Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
There was no offer to check if it was an error. And yes he said it was RM. He said: "I'm sorry if you have issues finding space with IKK, certain routes on certain dates may have limited space due to availability constraints or because RM forecasts the cabin going out with a high percentage of paid J, but as others have indicated there are certainly routes and dates with available R space. To my knowledge there is still no other FFP that offers the same level of availability to its top tier elites, and we use the J inventory restrictions on international flights as a way to try and ensure we can maintain it."

The phrase "certain routes and dates" has been consistently used as a generic disclaimer for years about IKK and R space in general. It is marketing and obfuscation, it does not reflect the widespread change in R (and therefore IKK) availability, and is thus not an answer. It is not a case of me disliking the answer, it is a case of not getting an answer. The cave remains just as dark as it was before. We are no wiser on the how or why than before.
It's true, if you take a short phrase from a paragraph that it may not answer the question. How does my bolding, however, not answer part of the why? How is that not a direct answer to the question?
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Old Jan 6, 15, 6:42 pm
  #1488  
 
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Originally Posted by PLeblond View Post
Apologies kind bovine sir. I was referring to the input of the AC crew here on the AC forum....

I would rather make my decisions based on their actual words, then the supposition and conjecture of a bunch of FFers who are basing their posts on rumour or hearsay.
And if by use of "rumour or hearsay" you mean careful use of the Expert Flyer tool to examine the facts, then we are in agreement. Here is the thing: I don't have to make this stuff up. Using Expert Flyer one can, in a matter of minutes, determine R, I, X, and P inventory for any route over a period of many months. Easy peasy lemon squeezey. So when Ben admits IKK is tied to R, and I go and find no availability for 10 months out on a given route, it isn't conjecture or hearsay, it is fact. It is a direct lookup of information on AC's own inventory system. Kinda irrefutable, basically. One side of that discussion had a bunch of conjecture (and that was the charitable interpretation), but it wasn't my side. And you can see whatever you want in somebody's words, but I don't have to be an expert in reading between the lines to recognize a non-answer and nonsense.
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Old Jan 6, 15, 6:51 pm
  #1489  
 
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Originally Posted by YEG2MM View Post
It's true, if you take a short phrase from a paragraph that it may not answer the question. How does my bolding, however, not answer part of the why? How is that not a direct answer to the question?
Because the question is not why has IKK declined (we all know it has). Come to think of it, I don't think I asked a question at all.

Ben took affront that I pointed out that IKK had declined and linked that to P, and also pointed out that he had claimed earlier that R space shouldn't decline as a result of P capacity for Lat upgrades. I didnt ask a question because I don't need to. I can use Expert Flyer as well as the next guy and the fact that R is gone on a bunch of international routes is verifiable by anybody that has a look.

I don't especially care about the why. Gone is gone. If IKK is dead, I could care less if it was killed deliberately or accidentally by Revenue Management, or deliberately or accidentally by the people that manage their loyalty program. But I would far rather that the FF community here know the truth, and discuss that than hear "certain routes on certain dates" which is completely unhelpful, isn't either an apology or an explanation, and does nothing except give AC deniability.
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Old Jan 6, 15, 6:55 pm
  #1490  
 
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Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
Because the question is not why has IKK declined (we all know it has). Come to think of it, I don't think I asked a question at all.

Ben took affront that I pointed out that IKK had declined and linked that to P, and also pointed out that he had claimed earlier that R space shouldn't decline as a result of P capacity for Lat upgrades. I didnt ask a question because I don't need to. I can use Expert Flyer as well as the next guy and the fact that R is gone on a bunch of international routes is verifiable by anybody that has a look.

I don't especially care about the why. Gone is gone. If IKK is dead, I could care less if it was killed deliberately or accidentally by Revenue Management, or deliberately or accidentally by the people that manage their loyalty program. But I would far rather that the FF community here know the truth, and discuss that than hear "certain routes on certain dates" which is completely unhelpful, isn't either an apology or an explanation, and does nothing except give AC deniability.
Your exact words at the end of the quote on my last post were "we are no wiser about the how or the Why" I'm sorry if I misinterpreted the last word.
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Old Jan 6, 15, 6:57 pm
  #1491  
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Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
I don't especially care about the why. Gone is gone. If IKK is dead, I could care less if it was killed deliberately or accidentally by Revenue Management, or deliberately or accidentally by the people that manage their loyalty program. But I would far rather that the FF community here know the truth, and discuss that than hear "certain routes on certain dates" which is completely unhelpful, isn't either an apology or an explanation, and does nothing except give AC deniability.
I think i've finally found someone more mad than me at the Altitude 2015 changes Yet another reason I don't bother with being a "SE" in a marketing program run by a corporation. Wanna fly? Pay up boys!
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Old Jan 6, 15, 7:07 pm
  #1492  
 
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Originally Posted by YEG2MM View Post
Your exact words at the end of the quote on my last post were "we are no wiser about the how or the Why" I'm sorry if I misinterpreted the last word.
Fair enough.

But since we are splitting hairs, Ben's explanation was preceded by a "may". As in Martians may have landed in New York (or may not have). I may have just won the lottery. Common sense may suddenly break out. I may get to own a red Ferrari at some time in my life. See the commonality? Notice how you can say anything if you precede it with a "may"?
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Old Jan 6, 15, 7:09 pm
  #1493  
 
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Originally Posted by superangrypenguin View Post
I think i've finally found someone more mad than me at the Altitude 2015 changes Yet another reason I don't bother with being a "SE" in a marketing program run by a corporation. Wanna fly? Pay up boys!
Truth in advertising is a pet peeve of mine. I have largely accepted that there are no real benefits to being an SE anymore. But I still dislike double speak. Always have, always will.
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Old Jan 7, 15, 5:46 am
  #1494  
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Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
And if by use of "rumour or hearsay" you mean careful use of the Expert Flyer tool to examine the facts, then we are in agreement. Here is the thing: I don't have to make this stuff up. Using Expert Flyer one can, in a matter of minutes, determine R, I, X, and P inventory for any route over a period of many months. Easy peasy lemon squeezey. So when Ben admits IKK is tied to R, and I go and find no availability for 10 months out on a given route, it isn't conjecture or hearsay, it is fact. It is a direct lookup of information on AC's own inventory system. Kinda irrefutable, basically. One side of that discussion had a bunch of conjecture (and that was the charitable interpretation), but it wasn't my side. And you can see whatever you want in somebody's words, but I don't have to be an expert in reading between the lines to recognize a non-answer and nonsense.
My words of rumour, hearsay, conjecture, etc. are general words about many, many threads in this forum. The example of IKK was brought specifically by you. In my responses, I tried to explain my point within your chosen example.

The most important point for me is I don't want to nitpick thread by thread, line by line. Like I also said, there's the Q&A thread of 94 pages and 1400+ lines where AC has provided information...on top of the dozens other threads where they answer specific questions, and especially those where the jump it to correct wrong information.

Do I expect them to tell us everything? No. But I'll take all the information I can get.

I wish they would, but I know the answers would not be well received here, because the real truth is probably not what most people here want to hear.
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Old Jan 7, 15, 5:56 am
  #1495  
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Originally Posted by kwflyer View Post
FT has been considerably more interesting and enormously more useful long before AC/airlines (and is actually why they showed up in the first place due to FT's remarkableness).

Its amazing how many people think FT was invented for the airline's use (hint: it wasn't).

Comments like that, are highly symptomanic of apologist thinking.
I suggest you read my post #1496 - just after the one you quoted where I say:
Originally Posted by PLeblond View Post
Before someone responds about FT existing before their presence, and will do so afterwards; I know that. There is also a reason why I didn't join before, and for me (and I can only speak for myself) feel that having answers (again, like them or not) is better than speculating in the dark with suppositions rather than facts.
And I fail to see how wanting to hear what AC has to say before making decisions about my choice of frequent flyer programme makes me an apologist. As I have said many times, I might not like what they telling me, but I want to know.

I consider not wanting to hear what they have to say as preaching ignorance. If people want a forum that does not want actual answers and comments from high level airline personnel, then maybe it should be re-nammed Flyertalk-TMZ?
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Old Jan 7, 15, 9:17 am
  #1496  
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If AC felt that only those spending in excess of $37,000 are eligible for SE top tier, they should simply state that and make it so. Otherwise, I have no reason to be made felt guilty as a charity case or told I am cheapening their product by taking advantage of their rules and fares.

EVEN if paying 4K round trip on paid lowest J fares TPAK, and collecting 150% AQM, one can be SE on little more than 3 round trips. That's again $12K-$15K per year.

So are people paying for their J seats now bottom feeders as well???

Ridiculous, isn't it.
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Old Jan 7, 15, 9:52 am
  #1497  
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Originally Posted by Allvest View Post
Otherwise, I have no reason to be made felt guilty as a charity case or told I am cheapening their product by taking advantage of their rules and fares.
At the risk of engaging on this topic, I should make it clear that nobody should feel guilty about maximising your value from the program as it stands. The rules are what they are, and if you find a way to make them work for you, good on you. But the reality is it wasn't sustainable in its current format, and the program necessitated a change.

Not sure why I have to clarify: You are not cheapening the product. None of our elites are charity cases. To put this to bed: What I meant (and I thought it was clear, apparently I was wrong - in any case, I fully admit it was a poor choice of words, and I'm sorry if it offended anyone) was the the program had to change because we felt the ability for one to pay Y and regularly expect to sit in J was diminishing the perceived value of the J cabin, in addition to taking up real estate we could otherwise sell (which is also why I would imagine, with record load factors, you are seeing increasingly restricted R inventory) and thus reduced the amount of paying J pax. In no way do we resent our most valued customers making use of the tools they have been given. Take that as you will, but I hope that clears things up.

We had to make some tough changes, but we do honestly recognise the value our top tier members bring to the business and always endeavour to put them first. That's honestly not marketing speak, it's the truth. I know many of you are adversely affected by this year's changes, but it's something we felt was necessary. Not trying to defend them, just explain them.

To get back on topic, I've been kicking around since 2006 and have no plans to go anywhere. Feel free to debate the value of our presence on here, but know that if you reach out for clarification or assistance, I'll do my utmost to get you an answer, to help where I can, or to make sure a plane is groomed

Last edited by Ben Lipsey; Jan 7, 15 at 10:30 am
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Old Jan 7, 15, 10:29 am
  #1498  
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Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
At the risk of engaging on this topic, I should make it clear that nobody should feel guilty about maximising your value from the program as it stands. The rules are what they are, and if you find a way to make them work for you, good on you. But the reality is it wasn't sustainable in its current format, and the program necessitated a change.

Not sure why I have to clarify: You are not cheapening the product. None of our elites are charity cases. To put this to bed: What I meant (and I thought it was clear, apparently I was wrong - in any case, I fully admit it was a poor choice of words) was the the program had to change because we felt the ability for one to pay Y and regularly expect to sit in J was diminishing the perceived value of the J cabin, in addition to taking up real estate we could otherwise sell (which is also why I would imagine, with record load factors, you are seeing increasingly restricted R inventory) and thus reduced the amount of paying J pax. In no way do we resent our most valued customers making use of the tools they have been given. Take that as you will, but I hope that clears things up.

To get back on topic, I've been kicking around since 2006 and have no plans to go anywhere. Feel free to debate the value of our presence on here, but know that if you reach out for clarification or assistance, I'll do my utmost to get you an answer, to help where I can, or to make sure a plane is groomed
Put to rest. Done. Accepted.

Please keep it fair going forward. (Meaning, if marketing/loyalty offers something, make it actually available).

On communication: Aeroplan site shows eUP thresholds still every 20K AQM. Is that then in place til Feb 28 at least?
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Old Jan 7, 15, 12:46 pm
  #1499  
 
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Originally Posted by Ben Lipsey View Post
We had to make some tough changes, but we do honestly recognise the value our top tier members bring to the business and always endeavour to put them first. That's honestly not marketing speak, it's the truth. I know many of you are adversely affected by this year's changes, but it's something we felt was necessary. Not trying to defend them, just explain them.
So fix IKK.

Seriously.

What does SE provide over other tiers? Not all the details to many of us (like 3 bags) but the big ones: Concierge, upgrades, IKK. 100% matching miles is appreciated, but without IKK it is very hard to use them. Concierge is pretty incremental. Upgrades got diminished 75%, roughly. IKK is the last significant privilege, and it is largely disappearing on certain routes. When there is R0 and J9 for months and months at a stretch, it appears that IKK is the lowest priority. So fix it.

There are lots of serious suggestions on how to do that in the other thread. But right now you are selling us something that doesn't exist. You can price that Ferraris at $10 if you want, but if the quantity available is zero, then who cares? That is the state of IKK on international J.

That's if all the changes weren't your intention.

If they were, just say that IKK availability has been reduced by 75% or more (as is currently, inarguably, the case on many international routes in J) and there it is. Will that materially impact the value of the program and the perceived value of the program? You better believe it. But at least we wouldn't be guessing at what the value of the program is, or if this will change this year (for the better).

Last edited by ridefar; Jan 7, 15 at 12:58 pm
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Old Jun 26, 15, 7:37 am
  #1500  
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Has anyone else noticed Ben appears to no longer post on this board?
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