Sep 19, 2017, 10:25 am
Last edit by: 24left
Jan 18 2021 TC issues Airworthiness Directive for the 737 MAX
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Air Canada Selects Boeing 737 MAX to Renew Mainline Narrowbody Fleet
Mar 20, 2019, 5:09 pm
#2191
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Mississauga Ontario
Posts: 4,103
Yup, sure getting interesting!
Headline: FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...oeing-737-max/
(Mod - am I posting this in the right one of 3 threads?)
Headline: FBI joining criminal investigation into certification of Boeing 737 MAX
https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...oeing-737-max/
(Mod - am I posting this in the right one of 3 threads?)
Mar 21, 2019, 12:40 pm
#2192
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: YYJ
Posts: 4,137
Today's news cycle focusing on the two optional safety features made available by Boeing that could have assisted the pilots in better identifying & recovering from the MCAS issues.
Angle of attack indicators & disagree lights.
Reviewing a few different articles, the major North American airlines varied widely in their approaches (both Lion & ET did not have these features). In hindsight, these likely should have been standard features given the MCAS challenges, but it sure sheds some light on the inner workings of some of these carriers.
AC & AA - purchased both options
Southwest - purchased disagree alert & separately installed AOA sensors.
WestJet - only disagree alert. No AOA sensors.
UA - did not select either :O
Yikes. That's not a good narrative. The Lion Air & Ethiopian pilots also used other data to fly their plane.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-on-crashed-2/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...pian-airlines/
Angle of attack indicators & disagree lights.
Reviewing a few different articles, the major North American airlines varied widely in their approaches (both Lion & ET did not have these features). In hindsight, these likely should have been standard features given the MCAS challenges, but it sure sheds some light on the inner workings of some of these carriers.
AC & AA - purchased both options
Southwest - purchased disagree alert & separately installed AOA sensors.
WestJet - only disagree alert. No AOA sensors.
UA - did not select either :O
A United spokesman said the airline does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane.
Yikes. That's not a good narrative. The Lion Air & Ethiopian pilots also used other data to fly their plane.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-on-crashed-2/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...pian-airlines/
Mar 21, 2019, 12:42 pm
#2193
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Posts: 18,877
CVR info from Lion Air. On a personal note, this is really sad, and based on comments from various members of the crews of 4 AC flights I just completed, the flying public are not the only ones who are concerned and rightly so.
NOTE: This article includes final words from the Lion Air crew, so be warned.
Doomed Lion Air pilots searched handbook for fix but ran out of time, cockpit voice recorder shows
PUBLISHED MAR 20, 2019, 2:27 PM SGT
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...search-for-fix
QUOTES:
"JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (REUTERS) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 Max scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.
The investigation into the crash, which killed all 189 people on board in October, has taken on new relevance as the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and other regulators grounded the model last week after a second deadly accident in Ethiopia.
Investigators examining the Indonesian crash are considering how a computer ordered the plane to dive in response to data from a faulty sensor and whether the pilots had enough training to respond appropriately to the emergency, among other factors.
It is the first time the voice recorder contents from the Lion Air flight have been made public........"
******
Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing: ‘Our credibility as leaders in aviation is being damaged’
By Capt. 'Sully' Sullenberger - Market Watch - Published: Mar 20, 2019 9:20 a.m. ET
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ca...aga-2019-03-19
NOTE: This article includes final words from the Lion Air crew, so be warned.
Doomed Lion Air pilots searched handbook for fix but ran out of time, cockpit voice recorder shows
PUBLISHED MAR 20, 2019, 2:27 PM SGT
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...search-for-fix
QUOTES:
"JAKARTA/SINGAPORE/PARIS (REUTERS) - The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 Max scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.
The investigation into the crash, which killed all 189 people on board in October, has taken on new relevance as the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and other regulators grounded the model last week after a second deadly accident in Ethiopia.
Investigators examining the Indonesian crash are considering how a computer ordered the plane to dive in response to data from a faulty sensor and whether the pilots had enough training to respond appropriately to the emergency, among other factors.
It is the first time the voice recorder contents from the Lion Air flight have been made public........"
******
Capt. Sullenberger on the FAA and Boeing: ‘Our credibility as leaders in aviation is being damaged’
By Capt. 'Sully' Sullenberger - Market Watch - Published: Mar 20, 2019 9:20 a.m. ET
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ca...aga-2019-03-19
Mar 21, 2019, 1:09 pm
#2194
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Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
Boeing to add extra safety alarm in 737 MAX jets: FT
Reuters - MARCH 21, 2019 / 10:34 AM / UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1R21JP
Reuters - MARCH 21, 2019 / 10:34 AM / UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1R21JP
Mar 21, 2019, 1:41 pm
#2196
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,446
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...fety-1.5065888
Air Canada says their 737 Max jets have all safety features Boeing sells as extras
Air Canada says their 737 Max jets have all safety features Boeing sells as extras
Mar 21, 2019, 2:54 pm
#2197
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: YVR
Programs: AC*SE MM, Marriott Lifetime Titanium
Posts: 4,604
The New York Times also said, citing unnamed sources, that Boeing will soon update the MCAS software and make the disagree light standard on all new 737 Max planes, but maintain the angle of attack indicator as an option.
Mar 21, 2019, 3:03 pm
#2198
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
Because there are two probes, just not two indicators. BTW, I think the issue of what stuff is installed or not is a bit overblown. Especially since initially pilots were not told there were issues with disagreement.
Mar 21, 2019, 3:12 pm
#2199
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boe...fety-1.5065888
Air Canada says their 737 Max jets have all safety features Boeing sells as extras
Air Canada says their 737 Max jets have all safety features Boeing sells as extras
Mar 21, 2019, 3:42 pm
#2200
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Join Date: Sep 2012
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Posts: 44,324
The indicator is a display that shows you the angle of attack, which is presumably mostly redundant information if the attitude indicator is functional.
Mar 21, 2019, 5:13 pm
#2202
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,514
So. From what I've been hearing, NG ET pilots may have flown the MAX without simulator training and JT pilots were not adequately trained to fly the new plane.
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
Mar 21, 2019, 5:21 pm
#2203
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SJC/YUL
Programs: DL PM, Marriott Gold
Posts: 3,878
Seriously, I don't think that 737 Max option list is enough to conclude how much each airline values safety.
Mar 21, 2019, 5:29 pm
#2204
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
So. From what I've been hearing, NG ET pilots may have flown the MAX without simulator training and JT pilots were not adequately trained to fly the new plane.
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
Airplane manufacturers are not supposed to design planes that can stall in some conditions which can only be avoided changing the trim. And if they did they should have told pilots, which they did not. And if they install a gimmick that supposedly does this for you, they should not make the gimmick more (much more) dangerous than the issue it's supposed to fix in the first place. And they should tell pilots such a gimmick exists and what to do if it malfunctions and makes the plane crash.
Mar 21, 2019, 5:55 pm
#2205
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,568
So. From what I've been hearing, NG ET pilots may have flown the MAX without simulator training and JT pilots were not adequately trained to fly the new plane.
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
So what's everyone's new argument? Airplane manufacturers need to make sure their customers adequately train their employees? If a pilot is drunk while flying is that also Boeing's fault?
Boeing made a new aircraft so it would be an improvement, and competitive in the market.
Boeing made derivative aircraft for two purposes:
1) so it would not have to have a full regulatory approvals process
2) so pilots would not need to have retraining to be certified on it
The point that would invalidate both 1 & 2, the need for a computer override system, was the fact that Boeing did not bother to tell anyone about it in their regulatory filings, maintenance and training material. Furthermore, their fix was implemented somewhere between poorly and with criminal levels of incompetence.
The MAX is, in reality, significantly different enough from previous generations that it deserves both a full regulatory certification process, and pilots should require a full retraining and transition process.
There has been no suggestion that the pilots were not good pilots, only that they were not trained on the MAX.
Had Boeing mentioned in their documentation "WARNING: THIS AIRCRAFT WILL OCCASIONALLY ATTEMPT TO FLY ITSELF INTO THE GROUND" then we could talk about how the airlines should have better training, and the pilots should have better reactions to that condition.
What did happen is that Boeing did not mention that rather critical fact, and indeed called the aircraft the 737 MAX for the explicit purpose of getting past any regulatory agency having an opportunity to to discover that fact during flight testing.