Sep 19, 2017, 10:25 am
Last edit by: 24left
Jan 18 2021 TC issues Airworthiness Directive for the 737 MAX
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Link to post https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/32976892-post4096.html
Cabin photos
Post 976 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29534462-post976.html
Post 1300 https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29780203-post1300.html
Cabin Layout
Interior Specs can be found here https://www.aircanada.com/ca/en/aco/home/fly/onboard/fleet.html
- Window seats may feel narrower to come as the armrests are placed "into" the "curvature" of the cabin.
- Seats with no windows feel even more narrower as there is no space created by the curvature of window.
- All bulkhead seats have very limited legroom.
- Seats 15A, 16A, 16F, 17A and 17F have limited windows.
- Exit rows 19 and 20 have more legroom than regular preferred seats.
Routes
The 737 MAX is designated to replace the A320-series. Based on announcements and schedule updates, the following specific routes will be operated by the 737 MAX in future:
YYZ-LAX (periodic flights)
YYZ-SNN (new route)
YUL-DUB (new route)
YYZ/YUL-KEF (replacing Rouge A319)
YYT-LHR (replacing Mainline A319)
YHZ-LHR (replacing Mainline B767)
Hawaii Routes YVR/YYC (replacing Rouge B767)
Many domestic trunk routes (YYZ, YVR, YUL, YYC) now operated by 7M8, replacing A320 family
Air Canada Selects Boeing 737 MAX to Renew Mainline Narrowbody Fleet
Mar 10, 2019, 1:49 pm
#1636
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,791
I don't think there is anything "wrong" with the aircraft itself. After a bit of listening to and reading commentary from actual experts, I have come to the realization that the issue is in large part related to two interrelated key aspects, neither of which is mechanical/technical; Sales practices and the closely associated training of pilots. These two issues should be known to Air Canada and hopefully a strategy is in place to address them.
I have had a few flights on the 737MAX with China Eastern and Shanghai Airlines. There are 11 aircraft at the airline now with the first deployed towards the end of 2017. No issues reported. My understanding is that there are in 58 Max in use with Chinese airlines, with no issues reported. Either the Chinese aircraft are magically protected, or the Chinese airlines have effectively trained their flight crews to respond to a flight control crisis on the aircraft.
The aircraft is sold as an easy step up for pilots who are flying older B737 models and AB319/320 models. The promotional material highlights the ease of transition and the cost containment associated with fleet changeover etc. Perhaps the promotional material has not emphasized the need for a pilot skill upgrade. The issues to date seem to relate to the flight control system changes and the need for a quick manual over ride when necessary. This requires intensive training and continual reinforcement. I note that Thai Lion is a relatively new airline and one with a rather poor reputation. Ethiopian has its own flight school and training facilities so it will certainly be of interest to Air Canada if the Ethiopian pilot training was faulty, or inadequate. I also note that both crashes have occurred with recent aircraft deployment.
I have had a few flights on the 737MAX with China Eastern and Shanghai Airlines. There are 11 aircraft at the airline now with the first deployed towards the end of 2017. No issues reported. My understanding is that there are in 58 Max in use with Chinese airlines, with no issues reported. Either the Chinese aircraft are magically protected, or the Chinese airlines have effectively trained their flight crews to respond to a flight control crisis on the aircraft.
The aircraft is sold as an easy step up for pilots who are flying older B737 models and AB319/320 models. The promotional material highlights the ease of transition and the cost containment associated with fleet changeover etc. Perhaps the promotional material has not emphasized the need for a pilot skill upgrade. The issues to date seem to relate to the flight control system changes and the need for a quick manual over ride when necessary. This requires intensive training and continual reinforcement. I note that Thai Lion is a relatively new airline and one with a rather poor reputation. Ethiopian has its own flight school and training facilities so it will certainly be of interest to Air Canada if the Ethiopian pilot training was faulty, or inadequate. I also note that both crashes have occurred with recent aircraft deployment.
The issue is specific to the max. Does not affect earlier 737s.
I do not believe for a cleansheet design, any manufacturer would even consider building an airliner that is not inherently stable throughout the envelope. The case of the BAC-111 and the deep stall issue first occurred a long time ago when things were quite different, and the issue was discovered way after the plane entered in service. In the case of the max though, it was purely an economic decision, however dubious technically. To me that's wrong.
BTW last time I was on a max was less than three weeks ago. Only flight that day between Olbia and MXP, so no real choice except flying to LIN. So yes, while I did not like it, I bit the bullet.
Mar 10, 2019, 1:58 pm
#1637
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,302
The MCAS issue reminds me of things I see in the software industry all the time.
---
Due to product decision X and engineering budget constraint Y, we want you to implement feature Z using mechanisms A, B, and C.
But that would result in five problems! We should use D, E, and F, but it will take longer and cost more.
No worries, those problems are unlikely to happen.
Two months later, a huge system goes down.
HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE FORESEEN THIS AND PLANNED AROUND IT
I literally told you this was going to happen, but you overruled me.
---
I can't even begin to describe how many times that happened at my old job.
It's sad it happened with an airplane where the consequences of a problem are much more severe, but it's the same everywhere. Cheap software can handle the vast majority of cases. And when the consequences are an hour of downtime, that's often acceptable. But it should never have happened at Boeing.
Maybe they should start enforcing licensing requirements for software engineers the same way they do for all other branches of engineering. And I say that as someone who works as an unlicensed software engineer.
---
Due to product decision X and engineering budget constraint Y, we want you to implement feature Z using mechanisms A, B, and C.
But that would result in five problems! We should use D, E, and F, but it will take longer and cost more.
No worries, those problems are unlikely to happen.
Two months later, a huge system goes down.
HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE FORESEEN THIS AND PLANNED AROUND IT
I literally told you this was going to happen, but you overruled me.
---
I can't even begin to describe how many times that happened at my old job.
It's sad it happened with an airplane where the consequences of a problem are much more severe, but it's the same everywhere. Cheap software can handle the vast majority of cases. And when the consequences are an hour of downtime, that's often acceptable. But it should never have happened at Boeing.
Maybe they should start enforcing licensing requirements for software engineers the same way they do for all other branches of engineering. And I say that as someone who works as an unlicensed software engineer.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:00 pm
#1638
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: YYT
Programs: M-Bonvoy Platinum Elite, Aeroplan 50K, DragonPass, AMEX MR, NEXUS
Posts: 1,715
The MCAS issue reminds me of things I see in the software industry all the time.
---
Due to product decision X and engineering budget constraint Y, we want you to implement feature Z using mechanisms A, B, and C.
But that would result in five problems! We should use D, E, and F, but it will take longer and cost more.
No worries, those problems are unlikely to happen.
Two months later, a huge system goes down.
HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE FORESEEN THIS AND PLANNED AROUND IT
I literally told you this was going to happen, but you overruled me.
---
I can't even begin to describe how many times that happened at my old job.
It's sad it happened with an airplane where the consequences of a problem are much more severe, but it's the same everywhere. Cheap software can handle the vast majority of cases. And when the consequences are an hour of downtime, that's often acceptable. But it should never have happened at Boeing.
Maybe they should start enforcing licensing requirements for software engineers the same way they do for all other branches of engineering. And I say that as someone who works as an unlicensed software engineer.
---
Due to product decision X and engineering budget constraint Y, we want you to implement feature Z using mechanisms A, B, and C.
But that would result in five problems! We should use D, E, and F, but it will take longer and cost more.
No worries, those problems are unlikely to happen.
Two months later, a huge system goes down.
HOW COULD YOU NOT HAVE FORESEEN THIS AND PLANNED AROUND IT
I literally told you this was going to happen, but you overruled me.
---
I can't even begin to describe how many times that happened at my old job.
It's sad it happened with an airplane where the consequences of a problem are much more severe, but it's the same everywhere. Cheap software can handle the vast majority of cases. And when the consequences are an hour of downtime, that's often acceptable. But it should never have happened at Boeing.
Maybe they should start enforcing licensing requirements for software engineers the same way they do for all other branches of engineering. And I say that as someone who works as an unlicensed software engineer.
I definitely expected more from Boeing, it is very unusual for them to cut corners in production and design of new aircraft.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:17 pm
#1640
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,562
One advantage that we AC PAX have is that our pilots transitioning from a 320 to MAX would have to go to school and learn how to do more than press the autopilot button.
The 737 old->MAX class could well be an afternoon reviewing sales brochures.
The 737 old->MAX class could well be an afternoon reviewing sales brochures.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:22 pm
#1641
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
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@canadiancow
unfortunately, licensed engineers get it wrong all the time too - maybe only difference is stamping a drawing that becomes proven source of fatality might mean license revoked + Error & Omissions insurance gets triggered.
Neither Boeing or AC are infallible- we accept range of risks in life, and hopefully we choose wisely based on evidence and causation - to do otherwise, well, Lotteries are great at selling “hope”
unfortunately, licensed engineers get it wrong all the time too - maybe only difference is stamping a drawing that becomes proven source of fatality might mean license revoked + Error & Omissions insurance gets triggered.
Neither Boeing or AC are infallible- we accept range of risks in life, and hopefully we choose wisely based on evidence and causation - to do otherwise, well, Lotteries are great at selling “hope”
I've worked with some self-taught people. They were about as good as you'd expect.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:26 pm
#1642
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYT/YYC/TPE
Programs: AC SE, UA, National Exec Elite, Nexus, GE
Posts: 1,810
@canadiancow
unfortunately, licensed engineers get it wrong all the time too - maybe only difference is stamping a drawing that becomes proven source of fatality might mean license revoked + Error & Omissions insurance gets triggered.
Neither Boeing or AC are infallible- we accept range of risks in life, and hopefully we choose wisely based on evidence and causation - to do otherwise, well, Lotteries are great at selling “hope”
unfortunately, licensed engineers get it wrong all the time too - maybe only difference is stamping a drawing that becomes proven source of fatality might mean license revoked + Error & Omissions insurance gets triggered.
Neither Boeing or AC are infallible- we accept range of risks in life, and hopefully we choose wisely based on evidence and causation - to do otherwise, well, Lotteries are great at selling “hope”
As a licensed engineer, I take my responsibility very seriously. There were numerous occasions where my refusal to stamp (due to concern of inherent design flaws that could potentially put people's lives in danger) resulted in delays to schedule. But I, and many licensed colleagues of mine, will never put profit ahead of public safety. Your assertion seemed to imply that licensed engineers are only concerned about losing licenses.
I will refrain again from responding to your rather slandering responses to some of the members here, but please show some respects to other professions.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:26 pm
#1643
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Programs: BA bronze, Aeroplan peon
Posts: 4,742
Mar 10, 2019, 2:30 pm
#1644
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Programs: AC SE100K-1MM, NH, DL, AA, BA, Global Entry/Nexus, APEC..
Posts: 18,877
Mar 10, 2019, 2:40 pm
#1645
Join Date: May 2004
Programs: aeroplan
Posts: 375
and what evidence do you have the new Boeing 737 has a bad safety record on the basis of a news report of this aircraft crash. Despite my post the UK government warns travelers against transportation in Ethiopia, completely ignored because some folks already decided what the cause actually is ��
and having had executive responsibility for transportation Public Safety in a provincial government, anyone concerned I don’t take safety seriously, gets offended far too easily, not to mention the commercial-IFR rating I long ago earned that demands safety first- or should I also mention I teach both aviation SMS & SEMS.
and Kahneman’s central thesis is profoundly critical in safety mgmt, otherwise I wouldn’t have raised it - trust AC mgmt follows best practice, and if they lose few scared customers, so be it.
"When you boast, your insecurity is showing."
Mar 10, 2019, 2:51 pm
#1646
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
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Posts: 2,917
There are several airlines who have had the aircraft in service for enough time to identify deficiencies if they exist. I am convinced that pilot error is a major part of these crashes, hence the need to review the training Ethiopian provided. It's easier to claim an aircraft defect, rather than point out pilot error and/or organizational training deficiencies. The airlines who have not had any issues must be doing something right.
Mar 10, 2019, 2:55 pm
#1648
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
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Posts: 4,742
Mar 10, 2019, 3:02 pm
#1649
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No, that's what I meant by "licensed". I only worked in Canada for 14 months after graduating, in a shop of ~50 engineers, none of whom had their P.Eng, and only 3 of us were even eligible (due to having accredited degrees).
I most certainly did not.
At best, the system as a whole was poorly designed. I haven't seen any evidence that there was "faulty software".
and @canadiancow correctly pointed out that a software engineer advanced some faulty code leading to MCAS fault.
I most certainly did not.
At best, the system as a whole was poorly designed. I haven't seen any evidence that there was "faulty software".