An interesting sample of AC defectors?
Mar 16, 2013, 12:09 pm
#31
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC*SEMM
Posts: 602
As those following this forum know, I have migrated away from AC/AE over the past few years as I viewed the program deteriorating become of less value given my travel patterns. While I had maintained SE status for the past several years and always had either that status or Elite status since such a program was introduced in the late 1980s, in recent years I shifted a lot of my overseas flights to UA and earned 1K in it for a fews years. Given the deterioration of aspects of that program but more so service issues since the merger with CO, I have now moved most of that flying (transborder and some international) to AA and become ExecPlat in its program. This year I am 75KElite with AC but this will be my final year with any elite status in the program, and any AC flying will be restricted to intra-Canadian flights. I also dropped down to Platinum in the MP program but intend to keep my STAR status through flying at least 75K EQMs on UA and its partners, including AC, and crediting those flights to MP.
There have been numerous posts, particularly this year, about people defecting form AC/AE and joining one or another of the US airline programs. For anyone taking a lot of transborder flights, this is a no-brainer. After achieving top tier elite, automatic upgrades to the front cabin is pretty much guaranteed about four or five days before the flight(s), no vouchers or eCredits required. So why fly AC unless your company doesn't mind paying for J or uses Latitude passes which also do the comp upgrade thing?
However, actual numbers of defectors remains speculative...at least for me until last Monday when I flew AA to DFW for my connection onward to NRT, upgraded shortly after booking my $1200 ticket using AA SWUs. Of the 16 people in the full front cabin, I counted three who sported not only AA ExecPlat tags but the new AC 75KElite tags. Counting me, that would represent 1/4 of those on the flight who have obviously decided it was better to give AA their money to fly to the US than AC.
While I don't believe this would provide an accurate scientific sampling, it is an interesting random sample that surely must be affecting AC's competitiveness and reinforces the belief that a lot of top tier elites are leaving, perhaps following my path of going from SE last year to 75KElite this year to nothing next year, but maintaining top tier elite status in one or another of the US programs.
There have been numerous posts, particularly this year, about people defecting form AC/AE and joining one or another of the US airline programs. For anyone taking a lot of transborder flights, this is a no-brainer. After achieving top tier elite, automatic upgrades to the front cabin is pretty much guaranteed about four or five days before the flight(s), no vouchers or eCredits required. So why fly AC unless your company doesn't mind paying for J or uses Latitude passes which also do the comp upgrade thing?
However, actual numbers of defectors remains speculative...at least for me until last Monday when I flew AA to DFW for my connection onward to NRT, upgraded shortly after booking my $1200 ticket using AA SWUs. Of the 16 people in the full front cabin, I counted three who sported not only AA ExecPlat tags but the new AC 75KElite tags. Counting me, that would represent 1/4 of those on the flight who have obviously decided it was better to give AA their money to fly to the US than AC.
While I don't believe this would provide an accurate scientific sampling, it is an interesting random sample that surely must be affecting AC's competitiveness and reinforces the belief that a lot of top tier elites are leaving, perhaps following my path of going from SE last year to 75KElite this year to nothing next year, but maintaining top tier elite status in one or another of the US programs.
Mar 16, 2013, 12:25 pm
#32
Join Date: Aug 2011
Programs: Aeroplan SE (8+ years) + 1MM
Posts: 6
WS for short haul
Well AC has lost my west coast business to WS. A combination of:
[1] direct YYJ-YEG flights meaning a 1 hr vs. 2.5-3 hr flight with AC (no YVR stop - sorry YVR),
[2] cheaper by 25%,
[3] live tv (yes, that's actually quite nice),
[4] jets vs. prop (AC actually replaced their CRJs from YYJ-YYC with Q400 props which are up to 20% slower, and bumpier over the rockies),
[5] paying $75 if you buy a flex fare to get an earlier flight to Victoria (pushing the cost even higher than WS)
All this makes this a no-brainer for anyone traveling short haul. AC only offers 1000-2000 Altitude pints round trip.
What really pushed me over the edge was my upgrade on the YEG-YVR leg in February. The meal consisted of a choice of a bag of chips or a small chocolate bar. Really? I can't imagine anyone paying for business class if this is what they got on an E90.
I'm a 200+K traveller last year and MM SE and once WS offers decent premium economy or business class across the country, I will move that business over as well.
[1] direct YYJ-YEG flights meaning a 1 hr vs. 2.5-3 hr flight with AC (no YVR stop - sorry YVR),
[2] cheaper by 25%,
[3] live tv (yes, that's actually quite nice),
[4] jets vs. prop (AC actually replaced their CRJs from YYJ-YYC with Q400 props which are up to 20% slower, and bumpier over the rockies),
[5] paying $75 if you buy a flex fare to get an earlier flight to Victoria (pushing the cost even higher than WS)
All this makes this a no-brainer for anyone traveling short haul. AC only offers 1000-2000 Altitude pints round trip.
What really pushed me over the edge was my upgrade on the YEG-YVR leg in February. The meal consisted of a choice of a bag of chips or a small chocolate bar. Really? I can't imagine anyone paying for business class if this is what they got on an E90.
I'm a 200+K traveller last year and MM SE and once WS offers decent premium economy or business class across the country, I will move that business over as well.
Mar 16, 2013, 12:33 pm
#33
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
Your message is pointless ... They are doing the right thing ... They don't care about customers like you who want "free" upgrades ... it's not bringing "real" money in ... They care about J pax and people willing to pay at least 3000$ to 4000$ for Transpac in FLEX ... beu bye!!
On the one hand AC is shafting some of its most loyal customers and they're responding. OPs message points out how.
On the other hand, AC has decided that its FF program isn't getting it what it wants, so its out shafting folk, which is fair enough.
Truthbetold, amongst those of us who have flown AC a lot over the last few years, its not clear that AC's executives have ever had their eye on the ball. They have made some pretty bad choices in the past (spinning off AE, seeing as FF programs have been pretty successful money generators for airlines like QF, which AC now wants to emulate), and I don't think its any great secret that without the Government bending rules for AC (protection from competition, protection from AC employees, protection from federal pension laws), this airline would have changed for the better a long time ago, even if it came through a painful restructuring. You could replace the entire exec with trained monkeys and AC would still do just as well as it is doing right now, largely because its performance is tied to external factors.
Hence OPs ...and others...need to put up a red flag every now and then. At least they're being proactive, unlike the "told you so" crowd that will show up as soon as the unions start trying to claw back their share of the profit pie if/when it expands.
Can AC afford to piss off its more loyal flyers? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll find out soon enough. Should the loyal fliers be complaining? Well, what would you rather they do? Keep quiet and wait for AC to really struggle after its alienated its FFs
After all, its not clear that this is a zero-sum game - it could well be a lose-lose game.
Mar 16, 2013, 2:27 pm
#34
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Closer to YTZ
Programs: Fairmont Platinum | AC Gate Lice Status | VIPorter
Posts: 2,554
[3] live tv (yes, that's actually quite nice),
WS is phasing TVs out - no new aircraft deliveries contain this feature. Replaced with pay-as-your go rental tablets. Shades of Jetsgo. I know, I was there.
WS is also contemplating "Comfort Plus" paid seating sections - two-abreast.
WS is phasing TVs out - no new aircraft deliveries contain this feature. Replaced with pay-as-your go rental tablets. Shades of Jetsgo. I know, I was there.
WS is also contemplating "Comfort Plus" paid seating sections - two-abreast.
Mar 16, 2013, 3:08 pm
#35
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Programs: United MileagePlus Silver, Nexus, Global Entry
Posts: 8,798
The thing I wonder about load factor is this: Let's assume AC's load factor is higher than it was five years ago. Five years ago did they still have the same number of seats to fill, or were there more of them? It's easy to claim high load factors if you're flying fewer aircraft. That's the piece I don't know...
Mar 16, 2013, 3:25 pm
#36
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ottawa
Programs: Cessna TTx Self-Fly
Posts: 2,982
I don't fly much anymore but when I do it's always either paid J or J reward. If WS debuts "Comfort Plus" I can see no reason why I'd stick with AC paid J domestically. And seeing as I've already switched my international flying away from AC then AC will lose me. I'm sure they won't care but it's still their loss.
Mar 16, 2013, 3:29 pm
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Programs: OWEmerald; STARGold; BonvoyPlat; IHGPlat/Amb; HiltonGold; A|ClubPat; AirMilesPlat
Posts: 38,186
On the shuttle bus this am from hotel to SFO. A bunch of flight attendants from various airlines,including AA. The AA bunch were vocal about routes,distances to commute for work and passengers on board.
One AA attendant quipped she told a recent pax that" we are here for your safety,we do not have to like you."
Someone answered back, 'Remind me why I do not fly AA?"
^
Someone else took a quick dig as well at the FAs
So I guess that my sample of 2 people taking shots at AA FAs would mean 20% .......
One AA attendant quipped she told a recent pax that" we are here for your safety,we do not have to like you."
Someone answered back, 'Remind me why I do not fly AA?"
^Someone else took a quick dig as well at the FAs
So I guess that my sample of 2 people taking shots at AA FAs would mean 20% .......
And The Lev, you left out the wifi on AA's B738s, so yes on this route AA does have an equipment advantage.
Mar 16, 2013, 3:57 pm
#38
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.448 Mobile Safari/534.8+)
It is and it isn't.
On the one hand AC is shafting some of its most loyal customers and they're responding. OPs message points out how.
On the other hand, AC has decided that its FF program isn't getting it what it wants, so its out shafting folk, which is fair enough.
Truthbetold, amongst those of us who have flown AC a lot over the last few years, its not clear that AC's executives have ever had their eye on the ball. They have made some pretty bad choices in the past (spinning off AE, seeing as FF programs have been pretty successful money generators for airlines like QF, which AC now wants to emulate), and I don't think its any great secret that without the Government bending rules for AC (protection from competition, protection from AC employees, protection from federal pension laws), this airline would have changed for the better a long time ago, even if it came through a painful restructuring. You could replace the entire exec with trained monkeys and AC would still do just as well as it is doing right now, largely because its performance is tied to external factors.
Hence OPs ...and others...need to put up a red flag every now and then. At least they're being proactive, unlike the "told you so" crowd that will show up as soon as the unions start trying to claw back their share of the profit pie if/when it expands.
Can AC afford to piss off its more loyal flyers? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll find out soon enough. Should the loyal fliers be complaining? Well, what would you rather they do? Keep quiet and wait for AC to really struggle after its alienated its FFs
After all, its not clear that this is a zero-sum game - it could well be a lose-lose game.
What would the monkeys be trained in?
Originally Posted by yulred
Your message is pointless ... They are doing the right thing ... They don't care about customers like you who want "free" upgrades ... it's not bringing "real" money in ... They care about J pax and people willing to pay at least 3000$ to 4000$ for Transpac in FLEX ... beu bye!!
On the one hand AC is shafting some of its most loyal customers and they're responding. OPs message points out how.
On the other hand, AC has decided that its FF program isn't getting it what it wants, so its out shafting folk, which is fair enough.
Truthbetold, amongst those of us who have flown AC a lot over the last few years, its not clear that AC's executives have ever had their eye on the ball. They have made some pretty bad choices in the past (spinning off AE, seeing as FF programs have been pretty successful money generators for airlines like QF, which AC now wants to emulate), and I don't think its any great secret that without the Government bending rules for AC (protection from competition, protection from AC employees, protection from federal pension laws), this airline would have changed for the better a long time ago, even if it came through a painful restructuring. You could replace the entire exec with trained monkeys and AC would still do just as well as it is doing right now, largely because its performance is tied to external factors.
Hence OPs ...and others...need to put up a red flag every now and then. At least they're being proactive, unlike the "told you so" crowd that will show up as soon as the unions start trying to claw back their share of the profit pie if/when it expands.
Can AC afford to piss off its more loyal flyers? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll find out soon enough. Should the loyal fliers be complaining? Well, what would you rather they do? Keep quiet and wait for AC to really struggle after its alienated its FFs
After all, its not clear that this is a zero-sum game - it could well be a lose-lose game.
Mar 16, 2013, 4:06 pm
#39
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.448 Mobile Safari/534.8+)
Your message is pointless ... They are doing the right thing ... They don't care about customers like you who want "free" upgrades ... it's not bringing "real" money in ... They care about J pax and people willing to pay at least 3000$ to 4000$ for Transpac in FLEX ... beu bye!!
If life were truly that simplistic then Air Canada's way forward would be to eliminate their FF program altogether (rather than just renaming it).
The route to world domination would be equally clear - sell nothing but full J and full Y fares.
You really should explain that to the AC executives. I'm sure they would be grateful for your profound wisdom.
Originally Posted by YUL_Around_The_World
As those following this forum know, I have migrated away from AC/AE over the past few years as I viewed the program deteriorating become of less value given my travel patterns. While I had maintained SE status for the past several years and always had either that status or Elite status since such a program was introduced in the late 1980s, in recent years I shifted a lot of my overseas flights to UA and earned 1K in it for a fews years. Given the deterioration of aspects of that program but more so service issues since the merger with CO, I have now moved most of that flying (transborder and some international) to AA and become ExecPlat in its program. This year I am 75KElite with AC but this will be my final year with any elite status in the program, and any AC flying will be restricted to intra-Canadian flights. I also dropped down to Platinum in the MP program but intend to keep my STAR status through flying at least 75K EQMs on UA and its partners, including AC, and crediting those flights to MP.
There have been numerous posts, particularly this year, about people defecting form AC/AE and joining one or another of the US airline programs. For anyone taking a lot of transborder flights, this is a no-brainer. After achieving top tier elite, automatic upgrades to the front cabin is pretty much guaranteed about four or five days before the flight(s), no vouchers or eCredits required. So why fly AC unless your company doesn't mind paying for J or uses Latitude passes which also do the comp upgrade thing?
However, actual numbers of defectors remains speculative...at least for me until last Monday when I flew AA to DFW for my connection onward to NRT, upgraded shortly after booking my $1200 ticket using AA SWUs. Of the 16 people in the full front cabin, I counted three who sported not only AA ExecPlat tags but the new AC 75KElite tags. Counting me, that would represent 1/4 of those on the flight who have obviously decided it was better to give AA their money to fly to the US than AC.
While I don't believe this would provide an accurate scientific sampling, it is an interesting random sample that surely must be affecting AC's competitiveness and reinforces the belief that a lot of top tier elites are leaving, perhaps following my path of going from SE last year to 75KElite this year to nothing next year, but maintaining top tier elite status in one or another of the US programs.
There have been numerous posts, particularly this year, about people defecting form AC/AE and joining one or another of the US airline programs. For anyone taking a lot of transborder flights, this is a no-brainer. After achieving top tier elite, automatic upgrades to the front cabin is pretty much guaranteed about four or five days before the flight(s), no vouchers or eCredits required. So why fly AC unless your company doesn't mind paying for J or uses Latitude passes which also do the comp upgrade thing?
However, actual numbers of defectors remains speculative...at least for me until last Monday when I flew AA to DFW for my connection onward to NRT, upgraded shortly after booking my $1200 ticket using AA SWUs. Of the 16 people in the full front cabin, I counted three who sported not only AA ExecPlat tags but the new AC 75KElite tags. Counting me, that would represent 1/4 of those on the flight who have obviously decided it was better to give AA their money to fly to the US than AC.
While I don't believe this would provide an accurate scientific sampling, it is an interesting random sample that surely must be affecting AC's competitiveness and reinforces the belief that a lot of top tier elites are leaving, perhaps following my path of going from SE last year to 75KElite this year to nothing next year, but maintaining top tier elite status in one or another of the US programs.
The route to world domination would be equally clear - sell nothing but full J and full Y fares.
You really should explain that to the AC executives. I'm sure they would be grateful for your profound wisdom.
Mar 16, 2013, 4:11 pm
#40
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (BlackBerry; U; BlackBerry 9780; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.8+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/6.0.0.448 Mobile Safari/534.8+)
I flew YVR-SEA a couple weeks ago on QX. 3 of us had AC elite tags.
Probably a typical Canadian who will trash AC even if it's not the truth.
So most Canadians ("typical") are liars?
Originally Posted by tracon
Of the 16 people in the full front cabin, I counted three who sported not only AA ExecPlat tags but the new AC 75KElite tags. Counting me, that would represent 1/4 of those on the flight who have obviously decided it was better to give AA their money to fly to the US than AC.
Probably a typical Canadian who will trash AC even if it's not the truth.
Mar 16, 2013, 4:54 pm
#41
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ontario, Canada
Programs: AC*SE MM, Hilton Gold, Marriott Gold, IHG Plat Amb
Posts: 3,439
This is probably my last year as SE, but I'm cutting back on my non-domestic AC flights and flyimng other * carriers. Right now I'm at ZRH on my way to HKG on LX. Apart from the bizarre requirement that you need a cell phone to get a text message to log in to the wi-fi, I'm very pleased with LX. Next time it will likely be TK.
Mar 16, 2013, 5:19 pm
#42
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM
Posts: 16,652
You can also go to the information desk downstairs (in direction of E gates one flight down) and scan your boarding pass to get a code then go back upstairs to the Swiss lounge.
Mar 16, 2013, 5:19 pm
#43
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YQR
Programs: Aeroplan - E75, Delta Sky Miles - Silver, HHonors - Gold, Club Carlson Silver
Posts: 561
Your message is pointless ... They are doing the right thing ... They don't care about customers like you who want "free" upgrades ... it's not bringing "real" money in ... They care about J pax and people willing to pay at least 3000$ to 4000$ for Transpac in FLEX ... beu bye!!
Since so many will pay the higher, upgradeable fares or the J fares, we can subsidized low T fares to the masses. It is the only way that AC can fill seats and compete with the rest of the pack given their bloated and ineffective staffing at all levels. A combination of being captive and lazy keeps us there.
Up to 2 years ago, I flew DL/KLM for nearly all of my TATL and US flights, but circumstances have changed - as have my patterns. IMO, all airlines that I've been on suck, but I haven't experienced the upper crust since paying for J on them is out of my budget...
Mar 16, 2013, 8:59 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 12,068
Fair enough given your sample. However, I must say the front line staff at AA have been the most positive and customer oriented I've come across in years. I'm not putting down AC's front line people, they're as variable as any company's and can't be all branded by the occasional indifferent ones. However, I've not yet come across a "sour" AA FA or gate agent. The last three transPac flight crews have been great, with members going out of their way to offer me more than the normal business class service (including sampling wines from the F cabin without my having to ask). Yes, like at AC and UA, few FAs like their company's president...it will be a wait and see through the merger but they did vote to support the initial US entrees. (There's an interesting thread on the subject of AA crews on that forum over on MP for a range of more informed impressions.)
And The Lev, you left out the wifi on AA's B738s, so yes on this route AA does have an equipment advantage.
And The Lev, you left out the wifi on AA's B738s, so yes on this route AA does have an equipment advantage.
Mar 16, 2013, 9:05 pm
#45
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,130
How to get into the right offices on Parliament Hill, hat in hand. Like the minkey in 'Return of the Pink Panther'.
In fairness, AC apparently has a history of appointing political hacks to its executive, presumably to train the others.