Rolling back the odometer?
 

I put a friend on an award ticket this afternoon, from SFO to YYZ. The scheduled departure time was 12:35 but the flight was delayed. I kept checking the flight status on the AC web site and several on-line flight trackers. All of them showed the actual departure as 13:40.

But checking the AC web site again this evening the flight status indicates a departure time of 13:00, some 40 minutes earlier than previously stated. All of the flight tracking sites also indicated the flight was still on the ground during the period of 13:00-13:40.

So what gives? Is there some "slop" in the system, is there some sort of hanky-panky going on?

{The reason it's an issue is that the delay caused a missed connection. There should have been time to catch the next flight (the last of the day) but there were "baggage delays" of about 1 hour for the bags to appear on the customs hall carousel. My friend is now stranded in YYZ.}

Although I can't answer your question regarding the departure time inaccuracies I'm curious to know, given that your friend was on an Award ticket (BTW, your a nice friend to have!), whether or not AC accomodated him with hotel, etc.?

I've always wondered how AC would handle this. What class of award was it?

Last year BA put my son & I up in LHR (with a limo ride to/from hotel, food, & expenses) on an econo award *and* upgraded us to J. Way to go BA!

Now back to AC to see how they accomodate someone in a similar situation... over to you KH.

I don't actually know the answer to your question, but I'll put on my smart-... hat and say that Ken already told how AC handled it:

andrew

I think the flight tracking systems such as trip.com are more accurate. They collect data from ATC / aircraft transponders and even show airspeed and altitude data of that particular flight.

The flight information published by Air Canada is what they want customers to see... Usually they define "departure" as boarding or gate-closing. There is also the taxi and take-off time which is not part of this "departure" time according to the airlines.

Strangely enough, not this time. The event was "in process" when I posted, and I was hoping for a quick response that might aid me in arguing the case, if I had to call the concierge.

But I think the cause was well enough defined they didn't argue. My friend did call me, pretty upset about the whole thing. I gave her some pointers on what I thought they should do (based on a non-weather related delay out of SFO, and a "baggage" delay at YYZ.) Sounds like she already read the airline the riot act. (Trust me, you don't want to cross her.)

Anyway, just got a call from her. She was put up in the Sheraton at T3, and given her choice of flights tomorrow morning. Room service arrived during the call, so perhaps they gave her meal voucher as well. A satisfactory response in my view, although I'd have preferred that she was here instead of there. (I'd also prefer that the get the baggage problems sorted out, as I'll be transitting YYZ myself {with friend} in a few days.)

BTW, it was a J class award.

[quote]The flight information published by Air Canada is what they want customers to see... Usually they define "departure" as boarding or gate-closing. There is also the taxi and take-off time which is not part of this "departure" time according to the airlines.[quote]Normally I wouldn't have noticed, except I was curious about my friends progress and the probability of her making the original connection. Had the AC site shown 13:00 all along I wouldn't have thought twice about it.

But even several hours into the flight the AC web site indicated a 13:40 departure, as did all the flight trackers. It was only these evening when I double checked (and after the flight had landed) that the time had changed to 13:00.

It sounds like the departure time was "corrected" for what ever reason. The most normal is that the cabin doors were originally closed at 1300 and brakes released causing a departure. Then the doors were opened again for whatever reason, and closed again with a second departure at 1340.

This is quite common in a delay situation. The pilots and flight attendants want the first departure recorded because then they start getting paid.

p.s. if you are getting $250.00 an hour the 40 minutes buys a beer or two.

[This message has been edited by exAC (edited 12-30-2001).]

Ken...you coulda also checked the GTAA site for the arrival time...

Dorian

Ken, isn't that perfectly normal? A pushback at 13:00 and takeoff at 13:40 is typical. 40 minutes taxiing is pretty normal at SFO.

It may be, but is posting a departure time of 13:40, then sometime well into or after the flight, changing it back to 13:00?

I never trust AC's flight arrival/departure times. I always use flight tracker. I'll bet a substantial component of AC's process is manual, making it error prone.

Ken, is there a significant benefit to AC to between leaving 25min late and 45min late? I thought 15min was the point where they were officially "late" but if being more or less than 30min late affects them, I'd say they probably rolled it back on purpose. Which as I understand it is the point of your question.

andrew

Flight Trackers departure time is typically the time the wheels leave the ground, hence the probably difference in the two times. Why Air Canada changed it later? I would agree with the point Andrew made that is was done for AC "on-time" departures.

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For AC's mainline fleet it is 100% automated now that the DC9's have been retired. They all work from an Air-to-Ground datalink.
The times recorded are out/off/descent through 10,000feet/on/in. The times are compared against the calculated flight plan and downline estimates are made at each point. The flight crew may also initiate a "position report" which generates messages to the company and adjusts the ETA.
The FIDS screens at the airports and on the Internet are generally integrated into receiving these messages automatically also.
The other systems from the Internet such as Flight Tracker receive all of their information from the FAA ATC system [and they are delayed by about 20 minutes for security reasons]

Internal to the company any delay over 5 minutes needs accountability so whether it was 25mins late or 40mins would make little difference. The change had to be effected by the System Operations Control Centre in YYZ and they do not make these adjustments without good reason, especially if it meens the crew would get an additional 40 minutes pay.

exAC, thanks for the good info. I didn't realize Flight Tracker was delayed. Is that something new? I was once in OGG tracking a flight of a friend arriving from YVR. It indicated the flight being directly over the town where I was. I wandered outside with binoculars, and sure enough, there it was, right overhead.

I don't think that the delay in display is new. I came to that conclusion a long time ago based on tracking via the web and tracking directly with the AC ops system. Trip.com also speaks of the display as "near real time".

I just checked AC124 which was due to leave YEG at 1700. It actually departed at 1708 [according to the AC web site]. Trip.com at 1709 said that it was scheduled to depart in 16 minutes.

Maybe that is the actual queue time assigned by the ATC for that aircraft to take off. So that time is reserved as the departure time and shown on the flight tracker.

Good! Now that's the way it should be handled. I wonder if it was offered to other pax or just the one's who were smarter/yelled louder? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I bet she had Ken on the cell while negotiating with the agents what she "deserves"! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

OK, now I know something's up.

Yesterday I put my mom on a flight home, that I observed depart late. I also spoke to her last evening, and she confirmed the plane left several minutes late. (We're using the "door closed" as the departure time, so it's not a matter of door or jetway or pushback of takeoff.) It wasn't particularly late, only a few minutes, nothing to be concerned about. It just came up in the conversation of how the flight went.

But checking AC's Status function on their web page indicates the flight departed 4 minutes early. Now I know this to be untrue.

Another lesson learned from US carriers?

The actual departure time of the aircraft that is recorded in AC's system and therefore used to pay pilots and FA is once the pilots release the brakes. At the same time they will turn on "anti-collision" light on top of the aircraft indicating the aircraft is ready to push back. Next step is to call apron for push back and if it is busy they will make you wait few minutes, sometimes even more if there is an aircraft stuck behind you that is waiting for a gate...When I worked as a gate agent I never waited for push back. Once you see the light on you leave the gate area as that aircraft is considered departed.

But surely it would take more than six minutes after arrival time especially for a 343 to get to that point. Yet their system shows arrival at HKG at 21:05, followed by departure at 21:11.

Someone believes in miracles?

Stranger, I think you posted in the wrong thread ;)

It is a computer error likely caused by an aircraft repositioning on arrival. The messages are registered upon main cabin door opening/closing and park brake release/set.

The scenario that I suspect is:
The airplane arrived and parkbrake set. The main cabin door was opened (arrival message sent) briefly, but the ground crew noticed that the aircraft was too far forward or backward to allow the door to open safely. The door was closed, the park brake removed and this gave a departure message to be sent.