International Flights from Edmonton
Oct 16, 2014, 9:20 am
#76
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 207
Just flew YEG- EWR ( came back EWR- IAH-YEG) all paid J with wife. The YEG-EWR was packed , food ....well pretty bad, service erratic, wine choice was "the red" new wifi base entertainment was erratic, Same applied for other legs.
I have not flown much up until Sept this year due to personal issues, but now back to normal schedule, surprised how bad UA has gotten. All that said shutting flight down seems odd but UA is mess in general .
I'm back to avoiding them, end of year going to look at reducing Aeroplan/ AC as well
I have not flown much up until Sept this year due to personal issues, but now back to normal schedule, surprised how bad UA has gotten. All that said shutting flight down seems odd but UA is mess in general .
I'm back to avoiding them, end of year going to look at reducing Aeroplan/ AC as well
Oct 16, 2014, 11:27 am
#77
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,813
Personally, I'm happy for the additional service and am curious to see this all play out in months+years ahead. I’m not likely to o/d nor transfer through YEG, and couldn’t care less if EIAA directed all the fees they collect to incentivize BA to start daily Concorde to YEG.
Ottawa is not a hub yet, seemingly, profitably fills a 767 to LHR in the Winter months with >1,000 AC seats departing for LHR every day within 200 miles of the city. I think that's a fair comparison and not a "slam" to Edmonton, believe it or not.
Oct 16, 2014, 1:14 pm
#79
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,514
Larger, nearby airports who offer AC many advantages will often lobby AC to not operate routes that they consider could hinder their traffic. I would assume than part of the YOW decision has a lot to do with YUL, as the YEG decision has to do with YYC.
Oct 16, 2014, 1:51 pm
#80
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,813
Besides, you’re wrong anyways - Ottawa gained 1-2w LHR flights this Winter. And before you tell me a flight or 2 per week is nothing, the additional 2*767 alone amounts to close to the entire TATL lift exYEG this Winter.
Oct 16, 2014, 2:22 pm
#81
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 627
Yes KLM is a gain. 17 flights to Europe next summer, as compared to 12 this summer.
Of course you haven't, you only pretend to know everything.
I know it is currently operating. Will it operate this winter? If not, I'd consider that a loss of service.
Last winter Edmonton had no flights to Europe, this winter it will have FI. That is a gain. Next winter it will have KL and FI (interesting how Ben said there is only room for one carrier from YEG to Europe over the winter).
By the way, why is Air Transat dropping YOW-LGW? Surely someone will pick up the slack. Oh wait, YOW is the only major Canadian airport not growing.
Last winter Edmonton had no flights to Europe, this winter it will have FI. That is a gain. Next winter it will have KL and FI (interesting how Ben said there is only room for one carrier from YEG to Europe over the winter).
By the way, why is Air Transat dropping YOW-LGW? Surely someone will pick up the slack. Oh wait, YOW is the only major Canadian airport not growing.
Last edited by TheGreatestX; Oct 16, 2014 at 2:39 pm
Oct 16, 2014, 5:33 pm
#82
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,813
Yeah, just read over your posts in this thread. Hard to argue you're a fountain of inside information.
What's the gauge and freq of W16 KLM ops @ YEG?
Good Gawd, how much grease did EIAA lather on KLM to squeeze them into deploying 1,000+ seats/week into YEG during Winter (assuming the inside info here is correct).
Weak o/d numbers, low-cost 1-stop competition to EU, existing operations at YVR&YYC, hubs in MSP and DTW. Basically limited to AMS o/d, cannibalizing current traffic, and YEG>beyond Europe.
Good thing the A330 has a big belly and can fit all the gold bars EIAA staffers will be loading each afternoon.
I'd presume more profitable opportunities elsewhere. Nefarious conspiracy theories about spiteful airlines network decisions are not my forte.
While charter/low-cost/all-Y operators are market leaders in some cities (hmmm?), never heard much about 1/weekly TS service in YOW
You're right there. YOW's growth cannot touch YEG's lately. Fed cuts have had an impact.
AKAIK YOW airport authority is fine letting the Market forces dictate who/what flies there ... Some airport authorities have other ideas
What's the gauge and freq of W16 KLM ops @ YEG?
Weak o/d numbers, low-cost 1-stop competition to EU, existing operations at YVR&YYC, hubs in MSP and DTW. Basically limited to AMS o/d, cannibalizing current traffic, and YEG>beyond Europe.
Good thing the A330 has a big belly and can fit all the gold bars EIAA staffers will be loading each afternoon.
I'd presume more profitable opportunities elsewhere. Nefarious conspiracy theories about spiteful airlines network decisions are not my forte.
While charter/low-cost/all-Y operators are market leaders in some cities (hmmm?), never heard much about 1/weekly TS service in YOW
You're right there. YOW's growth cannot touch YEG's lately. Fed cuts have had an impact.
AKAIK YOW airport authority is fine letting the Market forces dictate who/what flies there ... Some airport authorities have other ideas
Last edited by CloudsBelow; Oct 17, 2014 at 6:41 am
Oct 16, 2014, 9:16 pm
#83
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: SQ *Gold
Posts: 871
While I agree that AC is not driven by spite vis a vis YEG, and I do not think there is a grand conspiracy in the AC C-suite, I also think it is naive for some to argue that AC is only governed by 'market' decisions. Businesses are run by people, and people are affected, consiciously or not, by biases and relationships. And, judging by the FI advertisement fiasco last year and the tone of the leaked AC letter, it seems clear that there is enmity between EIAA and AC that goes beyond rational economic decision-making. I am not in a position to judge the historiography of said enmity and who is more or less responsible, but I think there is validity in some Edmontonians' belief that there is more to this than market-driven decision-making.
In short, no, I don't think there is an overwhelming AC vendetta against YEG, but I also don't buy that AC is a purely rational economic actor making purely market-incentivised decisions- no business is a purely rational economic actor. Judging by the acrinomy between people at EIAA and AC, I would at least suggest that in a hypothetical routing decision allocating aircraft between YEG or say, YYC or YOW; all outcomes being perfectly equal, AC would probably choose YYC or YOW instead of YEG.
Last edited by jbb; Oct 17, 2014 at 3:38 am Reason: Grammar
Oct 17, 2014, 1:27 pm
#84
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Need you ask?
Programs: AA DL LH BA KL AM
Posts: 33
AC850 YYC-LHR indicates a 763 through Until March 28/15, then a short switch to the A330 after that. But that's 90% of winter with the 763.
Last edited by PlanetYYZ; Oct 17, 2014 at 1:33 pm
Oct 17, 2014, 2:26 pm
#85
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
YOW's experience is what I would actually expect from an airport with a city the population of YEG, unlike what YEG currently is.
Oct 17, 2014, 2:53 pm
#86
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 797
Seems to me that consistently there are several members here - CloudsB and UpgradeS - who chime in on Edmonton air service with the same snide remarks when Edmonton and Northern Alberta gets new air service. Instead of being supportive, their remarks fall into one predictable category - Edmonton doesn't deserve, won't support air service offered by any airline.
Their thinking is this - If Air Canada doesn't offer any international service in YEG, how dare anyone else jump in? Those other airlines must be stupid. We all know those people who likes to pour cold water on everything? They sure like to stick their nose into someone else's business. Do you see Edmontonians commenting how Toronto doesn't deserve this route or Calgary doesn't deserve that route, or Vancouver or Montreal for that matter?
The northern part of Alberta is the engine for this province and AC is missing the boat. Those who think we should play second fiddle and sit idle and accept what AC gives us cannot be more wrong.
I flew Icelandair this summer and talking to a few employees, I was told that they are very happy with the performance from the Edmonton route, noting that over 70% of the traffic is connecting onto continental Europe. Plane was full front and back with 2 open seats on the outbound and inbound.
Looking forward to more options in YEG, be it FI, KLM, AA, or whomever. They must be wondering where have all the connecting passengers gone in YYC or YYZ?
Their thinking is this - If Air Canada doesn't offer any international service in YEG, how dare anyone else jump in? Those other airlines must be stupid. We all know those people who likes to pour cold water on everything? They sure like to stick their nose into someone else's business. Do you see Edmontonians commenting how Toronto doesn't deserve this route or Calgary doesn't deserve that route, or Vancouver or Montreal for that matter?
The northern part of Alberta is the engine for this province and AC is missing the boat. Those who think we should play second fiddle and sit idle and accept what AC gives us cannot be more wrong.
I flew Icelandair this summer and talking to a few employees, I was told that they are very happy with the performance from the Edmonton route, noting that over 70% of the traffic is connecting onto continental Europe. Plane was full front and back with 2 open seats on the outbound and inbound.
Looking forward to more options in YEG, be it FI, KLM, AA, or whomever. They must be wondering where have all the connecting passengers gone in YYC or YYZ?
It's viable as long as others don't usurp the route with n/s service, which will inevitably occur over the next few summers. Slice a few travelers here and a few travelers there and a winner turns into a loser pretty quickly.
There was a time when Delta operated multiple daily 757's + 737's and 727's from YYC to SLC when everything flowed through there.
Once open skies allowed new n/s services that bypassed SLC, Delta dropped SLC gauge again and again to the point where 20 years later, there are barely 150 seats a day on a couple of CRJ7's and 9's.
You can get away with down gauging to almost anything on a 750 mile sector. Unfortunately for Icelandair, there's really nothing much to down gauge to from a 757 on a 3,069 mile sector.
In of itself, Iceland isn't top of mind when it comes to a vacation destination for most other than for pure VFR travel.
Oct 17, 2014, 9:43 pm
#87
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,813
AC 850 is an A330 eff 24Jan2015 until the 77W takes over.
Last edited by CloudsBelow; Oct 17, 2014 at 9:48 pm
Oct 18, 2014, 9:43 am
#88
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 20,550
If there's one thing I've learned in life, be it in business or politics, it is that actors rarely work and decisions are rarely made purely on the cold calculus of rational economic factors. Personalities matter, relationships matter and behavioural psychology influences decisions.
While I agree that AC is not driven by spite vis a vis YEG, and I do not think there is a grand conspiracy in the AC C-suite, I also think it is naive for some to argue that AC is only governed by 'market' decisions. Businesses are run by people, and people are affected, consiciously or not, by biases and relationships. And, judging by the FI advertisement fiasco last year and the tone of the leaked AC letter, it seems clear that there is enmity between EIAA and AC that goes beyond rational economic decision-making. I am not in a position to judge the historiography of said enmity and who is more or less responsible, but I think there is validity in some Edmontonians' belief that there is more to this than market-driven decision-making.
In short, no, I don't think there is an overwhelming AC vendetta against YEG, but I also don't buy that AC is a purely rational economic actor making purely market-incentivised decisions- no business is a purely rational economic actor. Judging by the acrinomy between people at EIAA and AC, I would at least suggest that in a hypothetical routing decision allocating aircraft between YEG or say, YYC or YOW; all outcomes being perfectly equal, AC would probably choose YYC or YOW instead of YEG.
While I agree that AC is not driven by spite vis a vis YEG, and I do not think there is a grand conspiracy in the AC C-suite, I also think it is naive for some to argue that AC is only governed by 'market' decisions. Businesses are run by people, and people are affected, consiciously or not, by biases and relationships. And, judging by the FI advertisement fiasco last year and the tone of the leaked AC letter, it seems clear that there is enmity between EIAA and AC that goes beyond rational economic decision-making. I am not in a position to judge the historiography of said enmity and who is more or less responsible, but I think there is validity in some Edmontonians' belief that there is more to this than market-driven decision-making.
In short, no, I don't think there is an overwhelming AC vendetta against YEG, but I also don't buy that AC is a purely rational economic actor making purely market-incentivised decisions- no business is a purely rational economic actor. Judging by the acrinomy between people at EIAA and AC, I would at least suggest that in a hypothetical routing decision allocating aircraft between YEG or say, YYC or YOW; all outcomes being perfectly equal, AC would probably choose YYC or YOW instead of YEG.
If the executives were to make decisions based on emotion and not financial reasons. I would be advocating in an in camera session for their hides.
Oct 19, 2014, 4:38 am
#89
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: SQ *Gold
Posts: 871
And you've never heard of behavioural psychology? There are differences between making a conscious, emotionally driven decision (unlikely to happen very often in a public company, at least out in the open) and having your decision informed by personalities, relationships and subconscious emotional influences. Besides, I'm also sure there are big differences between what happens in the formal setting of a board meeting at that level and the myriad of smaller decisions that happen, in much less publicly exposed settings throughout a large company.
Oct 19, 2014, 12:52 pm
#90
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YEG
Programs: AC*E75
Posts: 885
Post decision audits would be interesting.