AC7945 Dec 10 Canceled...why?

Old Dec 10, 10, 7:50 pm
  #1  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 58
AC7945 Dec 10 Canceled...why?

Anyone know what happened to AC7945 today (Dec 10th)? Was booked on it, arrived at airport to find there's no flight. Rebooked for next day, moderate inconvenience.

Online flight status says 7945 was cancelled. Canceled last Friday too. Weather is fine, aircraft appears available.

Agent at YYZ said there is no flight in the schedule YYZ-MSP on Friday nights. Something about the "winter schedule" and "there hasn't been one for a few weeks now".

Except it is in the schedule. Has AC been canceling this flight for economic reasons (light loads)?
CapitalC is offline  
Old Dec 10, 10, 8:04 pm
  #2  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Canada / USA
Posts: 6,043
Originally Posted by CapitalC View Post
Anyone know what happened to AC7945 today (Dec 10th)? Was booked on it, arrived at airport to find there's no flight. Rebooked for next day, moderate inconvenience.

Online flight status says 7945 was cancelled. Canceled last Friday too. Weather is fine, aircraft appears available.

Agent at YYZ said there is no flight in the schedule YYZ-MSP on Friday nights. Something about the "winter schedule" and "there hasn't been one for a few weeks now".

Except it is in the schedule. Has AC been canceling this flight for economic reasons (light loads)?
I believe that aircraft RONs at MSP, where they are expecting something like 10 inches of snow tonight...
YYZC2 is offline  
Old Dec 11, 10, 5:14 pm
  #3  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,977
Originally Posted by CapitalC View Post
Agent at YYZ said there is no flight in the schedule YYZ-MSP on Friday nights. Something about the "winter schedule" and "there hasn't been one for a few weeks now".
Nonsense - the "few weeks" bit, unless few = two. It certainly used to be days 3457 as per the timetable, it's bookable (day 5) Friday Dec 17th and then disappears (5) until Jan 7th. Looks like a 'flexible' schedule .

Date Aircraft Origin Destination Departure Arrival Duration
2010-Dec-09 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:43PM EST 09:27PM CST 1:44
2010-Dec-08 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:25PM EST 09:11PM CST 1:46
2010-Dec-05 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:38PM EST 09:17PM CST 1:39
2010-Dec-02 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:41PM EST 09:26PM CST 1:45
2010-Dec-01 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:30PM EST 09:15PM CST 1:45
2010-Nov-21 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:59PM EST 09:59PM CST 2:00
2010-Nov-19 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:39PM EST 09:40PM CST 2:01
2010-Nov-18 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:46PM EST 09:48PM CST 2:02
2010-Nov-17 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:41PM EST 09:32PM CST 1:51
2010-Nov-14 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 09:29PM EST 10:13PM CST 1:44
2010-Nov-12 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:26PM EST 09:09PM CST 1:43
2010-Nov-11 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:42PM EST 09:29PM CST 1:47
2010-Nov-10 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:43PM EST 09:11PM CST 1:28
2010-Nov-07 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:44PM EST 09:36PM CST 1:52
2010-Nov-05 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:48PM EDT 09:24PM CDT 1:36
2010-Nov-04 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:35PM EDT 09:17PM CDT 1:42
2010-Nov-03 CRJ1/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:43PM EDT 09:28PM CDT 1:45
2010-Oct-31 CRJ2/Q Toronto Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Minneapolis/St Paul Intl (KMSP) 08:41PM EDT 09:30PM CDT 1:49
(flightaware.com)
Wally Bird is offline  
Old Dec 11, 10, 5:35 pm
  #4  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: YQR
Posts: 2,304
I am guessing it has to do with the blizzard conditions in MSP today. Delta cancelled their flights to and from YQR today due to weather, so operations their are generally not normal.
arf04 is offline  
Old Dec 11, 10, 5:39 pm
  #5  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: YQR
Posts: 2,304
The MSP site shows nothing going in or out tonight. Must be some storm.
arf04 is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 12:25 am
  #6  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by YYZC2 View Post
I believe that aircraft RONs at MSP, where they are expecting something like 10 inches of snow tonight...
Indeed, that is the explanation. MSP got 12-18 inches of snow staring early AM Saturday and was totally closed all day Dec 11th. No flights in our out all day. Flights resume Sunday Dec 12th.

AC/QK could have safely flown 7945 to MSP Friday night Dec 10 however it would have stranded a CRJ there. Since AC/QK operations didn't want their plane and crew stuck in snowy Minneapolis they canceled the flight.

As a result my "weekend in Minneapolis" is a washout. Outbound Friday and return Sunday got rebooked as outbound Sunday and return Monday. That is hardly an acceptable rebooking.

While "weather" is at fault here, and all the cancellations on Dec 11th are Wx and out of AC control...the cancellation of AC/QK 7945 on Dec 10th was a business/operations decision.

So I am due some compensation for the havoc caused by that decision. At least a refund for the flight, right? I assume the prepaid hotel, car, etc. in Minneapolis are a write-off.
CapitalC is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 9:45 am
  #7  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,977
Originally Posted by CapitalC View Post
Indeed, that is the explanation. MSP got 12-18 inches of snow staring early AM Saturday and was totally closed all day Dec 11th. No flights in our out all day.
According to flightstats.com there were a (very) few flights which did operate on Saturday.
Wally Bird is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 9:47 am
  #8  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CVG/YYZ
Programs: UA Gold, AC, AA, DL, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 11,637
Originally Posted by CapitalC View Post
Indeed, that is the explanation. MSP got 12-18 inches of snow staring early AM Saturday and was totally closed all day Dec 11th. No flights in our out all day. Flights resume Sunday Dec 12th.

AC/QK could have safely flown 7945 to MSP Friday night Dec 10 however it would have stranded a CRJ there. Since AC/QK operations didn't want their plane and crew stuck in snowy Minneapolis they canceled the flight.

As a result my "weekend in Minneapolis" is a washout. Outbound Friday and return Sunday got rebooked as outbound Sunday and return Monday. That is hardly an acceptable rebooking.

While "weather" is at fault here, and all the cancellations on Dec 11th are Wx and out of AC control...the cancellation of AC/QK 7945 on Dec 10th was a business/operations decision.

So I am due some compensation for the havoc caused by that decision. At least a refund for the flight, right? I assume the prepaid hotel, car, etc. in Minneapolis are a write-off.
You shouldn't have a problem getting a refund - the flight was canceled. Don't believe you will get compensation for a canceled flight though.

I've found AC is quick to cancel US-bound flights when whether is expected that might get the aircraft stuck there. Even when the weather is fine at the time. When I lived in ORD, I started booking UA flights more and more in the winter, as I realized at the first sight or forecast of a little snow, AC would cancel the inbound, therefore canceling the outbound, while UA would run most of its flights.

But to AC's credit - it makes it a lot easier to get the schedule up and going properly again in irrops. Yes, you were disserviced on the inbound flight that got canceled, obviously, not good. But, what if you were on one of the several Sat. flights that got scrubbed because the aircraft was stuck in MSP? US carriers are now also quicker to cancel trips in potentially stormy weather, partly because of the tarmac delay rule, but also partially, I believe, because they can get back up and running much quicker after any event.

You may have been saved by this at some point, too, by having an aircraft in place to run your departure that would have otherwise been stuck somewhere else. The up to 50 pax disserviced scheduled on your departure would have gone upwards to potentially hundreds of diserviced pax (say, 300 if the aircraft was scheduled to do 6 segments) if the aircraft went to MSP and got stuck. That's not even including any disruptions that may have occurred if the crew that was in MSP was also scheduled to run segments on other aircraft that day, who can no longer report to work.

In short, it's a lot more complicated then you think. AC and other carriers don't take flight cancellations lightly.
emcampbe is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 1:35 pm
  #9  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YQR
Programs: NEXUS; alas, no status anymore.
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by emcampbe View Post
I've found AC is quick to cancel US-bound flights when whether is expected that might get the aircraft stuck there. Even when the weather is fine at the time. When I lived in ORD, I started booking UA flights more and more in the winter, as I realized at the first sight or forecast of a little snow, AC would cancel the inbound, therefore canceling the outbound, while UA would run most of its flights.
On my way to YYZ a month or so ago, I overheard AC agents at YQR that were amused that UA abandoned a landing at YQR from ORD and went to another airport due to some ice fog. AC's flights were landing fine and I actually got to Toronto early. Apparently the United Express/Skywest pilots are very cautious about bad weather landings, at least in Regina. AC is flying similar aircraft (E175 that day instead of CRJ-700 for UA/Skywest) and they didn't think the weather was a problem at all.
PhotoJim is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 1:38 pm
  #10  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by emcampbe View Post
You may have been saved by this at some point, too, by having an aircraft in place to run your departure that would have otherwise been stuck somewhere else. The up to 50 pax disserviced scheduled on your departure would have gone upwards to potentially hundreds of diserviced pax (say, 300 if the aircraft was scheduled to do 6 segments) if the aircraft went to MSP and got stuck. That's not even including any disruptions that may have occurred if the crew that was in MSP was also scheduled to run segments on other aircraft that day, who can no longer report to work.

In short, it's a lot more complicated then you think. AC and other carriers don't take flight cancellations lightly.
I understand the rationale, but:

1. If the plane and crew just go back and forth YYZ-MSP-YYZ those other 6 segments would have been canceled anyway. Instead of being stuck in MSP they were twiddling their thumbs in YYZ.

2. If the decision is to keep the plane in YYZ because of the domino effect it might have on subsequent flights, that is a business decision. That is not a weather cancellation. Maybe it is rational to disservice 50 pax to benefit 300. But you ought to compensate the 50 for their sacrifice.

"We decided to strand you because we might need that plane for something else" or "it's for the greater good" isn't that satisfying to me, when I'm out of pocket for non-refundable bookings at the destination and AC opted not to fly me there because it's less expensive than the alternative.

Also, it sounds like I will only get a partial refund. Original itinerary was YUL-YYZ-MSP-YYZ-YUL. I will end up flying YUL-YYZ-YUL with two days stuck in YYZ. AC/AE is arguing that they fulfilled part of my itinerary even though they did not get me to my destination and caused me to waste my weekend somewhere I had no interest in being. Does that make sense?
CapitalC is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 2:35 pm
  #11  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,977
Originally Posted by PhotoJim View Post
AC is flying similar aircraft (E175 that day instead of CRJ-700 for UA/Skywest) and they didn't think the weather was a problem at all.
The E175 has leading-edge slats, the CRJ does not. Similar yes, but an important difference in icing conditions.
Wally Bird is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 2:55 pm
  #12  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CVG/YYZ
Programs: UA Gold, AC, AA, DL, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold
Posts: 11,637
Originally Posted by CapitalC View Post
I understand the rationale, but:

1. If the plane and crew just go back and forth YYZ-MSP-YYZ those other 6 segments would have been canceled anyway. Instead of being stuck in MSP they were twiddling their thumbs in YYZ.

2. If the decision is to keep the plane in YYZ because of the domino effect it might have on subsequent flights, that is a business decision. That is not a weather cancellation. Maybe it is rational to disservice 50 pax to benefit 300. But you ought to compensate the 50 for their sacrifice.

"We decided to strand you because we might need that plane for something else" or "it's for the greater good" isn't that satisfying to me, when I'm out of pocket for non-refundable bookings at the destination and AC opted not to fly me there because it's less expensive than the alternative.

Also, it sounds like I will only get a partial refund. Original itinerary was YUL-YYZ-MSP-YYZ-YUL. I will end up flying YUL-YYZ-YUL with two days stuck in YYZ. AC/AE is arguing that they fulfilled part of my itinerary even though they did not get me to my destination and caused me to waste my weekend somewhere I had no interest in being. Does that make sense?
The plane and crew does not go between YYZ and MSP all day. The plane would turn at MSP and come back to YYZ, then likely onto another Canadian or US destination. Jazz (and AC) schedules the aircraft for maximum efficiency, not to go back and forth between the same destination. Possibly back to MSP - yes. But likely, onto another destination.

Crew does not stay with a specific aircraft, either. Crew scheduling is very complicated, especially in irrops. Likely, the FA returns to YYZ, then may very well be scheduled on a later flight on a different aircraft. Ditto with the pilots. So in essence, if the flight doesn't make it back, you have a plane that was supposed to go, to say, BDL, that can no longer run it, an FA that was supposed to go, to say, YQR and a pilot that was supposed to fly the flight, to say, CVG. Now, they need to figure out a way to deal with all this, either through finding another crew for affected flights for staff, and equipment for those affected flights. This is only talking about the first set of flights for all this. You can see how this can snowball and become even more problematic very quickly.

As for your trip, did you book a connection or a stop over? If it was a connection, then call back and tell them this was a trip in vein, and as such, you are entitled to a full refund.
emcampbe is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 5:42 pm
  #13  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YQR
Programs: NEXUS; alas, no status anymore.
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by Wally Bird View Post
The E175 has leading-edge slats, the CRJ does not. Similar yes, but an important difference in icing conditions.
You taught me something!

I didn't notice that AC cancelled its CRJ100/200 flights in and out of Regina that day, but I didn't pay that much attention.
PhotoJim is offline  
Old Dec 12, 10, 6:13 pm
  #14  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: YQR
Posts: 2,304
Originally Posted by PhotoJim View Post
You taught me something!

I didn't notice that AC cancelled its CRJ100/200 flights in and out of Regina that day, but I didn't pay that much attention.
If it was the same day I was in the airport, I believe that the United flight was delayed just over an hour (they were enroute from Saskatoon) as they waited for the fog to lift enough to land. The CRJ I was to board was delayed about 20-30 minutes inbound from YYC.

Given the amount of fog/ice fog we've had of late I expect that there was more than one day that United was delayed. I wonder, too, if the fact that they come from Saskatoon impacts the decision to delay the flight. If there is a chance that they cannot land perhaps after a certain amount of time they cancel the YQR stop and just go straight to ORD?
arf04 is offline  
Old Dec 15, 10, 1:04 pm
  #15  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YQR
Programs: NEXUS; alas, no status anymore.
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by arf04 View Post
If it was the same day I was in the airport, I believe that the United flight was delayed just over an hour (they were enroute from Saskatoon) as they waited for the fog to lift enough to land. The CRJ I was to board was delayed about 20-30 minutes inbound from YYC.

...If there is a chance that they cannot land perhaps after a certain amount of time they cancel the YQR stop and just go straight to ORD?
It was October 30 that I flew YQR-YYZ. We left on time, we arrived approximately on time (I didn't pay that close attention). My pre-departure estimate was to get to my hotel in Buffalo, NY by 6:30 pm and I got there at 6:40

We were on an E175 to YYZ though - so as mentioned above, that might have changed things.

My understanding was that the YQR-ORD UA flight was cancelled that day but I could easily be wrong and it may only have been lengthily delayed.
PhotoJim is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread