The Most Ridiculous YYZ Arrival I've Ever Had
Nov 10, 2010, 3:36 pm
#31
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: YYC
Posts: 4,035
These are indeed common misconceptions about how pre-clearance works.
US CBP do their bit in the preclearance area - pre-clearing people and things for entry into the US. They do not administer the entire intransit area in any other way. The intransit area is Canada, full stop.
The Preclearance Act uses pretty strong language in this regards.
People have the right to leave the preclearance or intransit area if they are not going to go to the United States (unless they lied or obstructed...). Their only obligation is to report to the CBSA when leaving the area. It makes no difference how they ended up in the preclearance area, be it by accident or by the usual channels.
US CBP do their bit in the preclearance area - pre-clearing people and things for entry into the US. They do not administer the entire intransit area in any other way. The intransit area is Canada, full stop.
The Preclearance Act uses pretty strong language in this regards.
People have the right to leave the preclearance or intransit area if they are not going to go to the United States (unless they lied or obstructed...). Their only obligation is to report to the CBSA when leaving the area. It makes no difference how they ended up in the preclearance area, be it by accident or by the usual channels.
CBP however can make GTAA's life VERY difficult by saying the pre-clearance area is no longer sterile so they want everyone out for re-screening (as they CAN revoke the 'pre-cleared' status of a flight). As both AC and GTAA (and CBSA for that matter) don't want CBP to do that, they immediately talked with them to determine what actions they (AC/GTAA/CBSA) needed to take to keep CBP happy.
Nov 10, 2010, 5:18 pm
#32
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1
Embarrassing
On Monday, November 8, I was on AC 457 from Ottawa to Toronto. The flight landed about 10 minutes early, which was great. Things went downhill from there, and devolved into one of the most frustrating, embarrassing, comical displays of airport logistics I have ever witnessed. I'd like to note as a caveat that what follows is not a rant in tone; it's just an account of what happened for your amusement and of course your comments.
I was near the front of the aircraft so I de-planed fairly quickly on arrival, and I was following the "exit" signs in the hallway off the bridge when a handful of passengers, escorted by an AC gate agent, came back towards me, saying "wrong way". The agent then escorted us in the opposite direction, having to enter her code to unlock three security doors along the way, the last of which released us into (what we thought was) the main passenger/gate area of Pearson's T1. This should have been a hint that something odd was going on. She released us out into the terminal, and headed back towards the plane.
While the group of us followed the signs towards "baggage claim" blindly, moving along the glass wall separating us from the regular moving sidewalks and domestic gates, it quickly became apparent that all was not as it should be. There was no exit to the "outside world"; as a plane full of domestic passengers, we realized we were trapped in the US departure gate area. We had come to a halt, the whole planefull of us, beside a set of big locked sliding glass doors, beyond which was our destination.
A couple of passengers dutifully pushed the "security" call buttons, and nobody on the other end could quite understand our predicament. They sent a couple security officers, and finally what appeared to be a manager, to try to figure out what to do with us. AC was nowhere to be found. Security decided that because we were in a space that was post-US border control, we couldn't just be released. Somebody, some government, would have to sign off...but who? After much phoning and radioing back and forth, Canadian customs was apparently a-ok with just letting us go. Then the US weighed in...and "not so fast", they said. Despite the fact that we were a domestic flight wanting to be released into Toronto, they wanted to somehow inspect each passenger's bonafides. AC showed up at this point, but pretty much as observers. The logistics were, clearly, too much for our GTAA and AC friends to handle. After standing in our little glass cage for a half hour while various authorities hemmed and hawed, we were led to the end of the US departures area, swiftly up a staircase and to onlookers astonishment, backwards through US security, with all 130 of us beeping through the metal detectors in reverse.
Next, of course, came the brick wall that is US Customs - but we were looking at it from the other side, as people cleared and came towards us to head through security. Things now felt truly bizarre. Border patrol agents were seemingly shocked, and didn't know what to make of this huge group of people corralled into an odd space. And the crowd was now getting frustrated and unruly, with many starting to shout. The AC and GTAA agents did try to tell us that the powers that be were deciding what to do with us, but it was an unusually unnerving situation, and tempers were not quelled.
After an hour and fifteen minutes, it was decided that the plane manifest would be printed in duplicate - connecting passengers were put off to the side to be dealt with...somehow, and domestic bound passengers would be released - backwards through US customs/border patrol - after showing our boarding passes to cross check with the manifest. We were escorted out in small groups by a Peel police officer who was extremely understanding and good-humoured.
From beginning to end, the ordeal lasted an hour and a half, putting us out into gridlock traffic around Toronto, and at least for me, getting me downtown just in time to miss at least a couple of the meetings I was travelling to attend. Annoying, but of course, not the end of the world.
This probably isn’t the first time that this has happened so perhaps it doesn’t seem too remarkable, but it was certainly a first for me, and I know that for those security, customs, and border officers involved, they had never seen such an unusual situation, and seemed truly bumfuzzled. I’m actually a pretty big fan of Air Canada and for the most part, it’s customer service, so I don’t take any opportunity to “bash” them, but I can’t help but think the responsibility for having an appropriate, approved routing for deplaning passenger’s is the airline’s responsibility, and the agent who misled us is ultimately at fault for the mix-up.
I couldn’t help but chuckle to see that while our increasingly impatient mob lobbed questions at the GTAA and security staff, the AC agent who had started the mess, with her head down, quickly snuck through the group and swiped a pass releasing her into the Airport beyond. Nobody even noticed.
I was near the front of the aircraft so I de-planed fairly quickly on arrival, and I was following the "exit" signs in the hallway off the bridge when a handful of passengers, escorted by an AC gate agent, came back towards me, saying "wrong way". The agent then escorted us in the opposite direction, having to enter her code to unlock three security doors along the way, the last of which released us into (what we thought was) the main passenger/gate area of Pearson's T1. This should have been a hint that something odd was going on. She released us out into the terminal, and headed back towards the plane.
While the group of us followed the signs towards "baggage claim" blindly, moving along the glass wall separating us from the regular moving sidewalks and domestic gates, it quickly became apparent that all was not as it should be. There was no exit to the "outside world"; as a plane full of domestic passengers, we realized we were trapped in the US departure gate area. We had come to a halt, the whole planefull of us, beside a set of big locked sliding glass doors, beyond which was our destination.
A couple of passengers dutifully pushed the "security" call buttons, and nobody on the other end could quite understand our predicament. They sent a couple security officers, and finally what appeared to be a manager, to try to figure out what to do with us. AC was nowhere to be found. Security decided that because we were in a space that was post-US border control, we couldn't just be released. Somebody, some government, would have to sign off...but who? After much phoning and radioing back and forth, Canadian customs was apparently a-ok with just letting us go. Then the US weighed in...and "not so fast", they said. Despite the fact that we were a domestic flight wanting to be released into Toronto, they wanted to somehow inspect each passenger's bonafides. AC showed up at this point, but pretty much as observers. The logistics were, clearly, too much for our GTAA and AC friends to handle. After standing in our little glass cage for a half hour while various authorities hemmed and hawed, we were led to the end of the US departures area, swiftly up a staircase and to onlookers astonishment, backwards through US security, with all 130 of us beeping through the metal detectors in reverse.
Next, of course, came the brick wall that is US Customs - but we were looking at it from the other side, as people cleared and came towards us to head through security. Things now felt truly bizarre. Border patrol agents were seemingly shocked, and didn't know what to make of this huge group of people corralled into an odd space. And the crowd was now getting frustrated and unruly, with many starting to shout. The AC and GTAA agents did try to tell us that the powers that be were deciding what to do with us, but it was an unusually unnerving situation, and tempers were not quelled.
After an hour and fifteen minutes, it was decided that the plane manifest would be printed in duplicate - connecting passengers were put off to the side to be dealt with...somehow, and domestic bound passengers would be released - backwards through US customs/border patrol - after showing our boarding passes to cross check with the manifest. We were escorted out in small groups by a Peel police officer who was extremely understanding and good-humoured.
From beginning to end, the ordeal lasted an hour and a half, putting us out into gridlock traffic around Toronto, and at least for me, getting me downtown just in time to miss at least a couple of the meetings I was travelling to attend. Annoying, but of course, not the end of the world.
This probably isn’t the first time that this has happened so perhaps it doesn’t seem too remarkable, but it was certainly a first for me, and I know that for those security, customs, and border officers involved, they had never seen such an unusual situation, and seemed truly bumfuzzled. I’m actually a pretty big fan of Air Canada and for the most part, it’s customer service, so I don’t take any opportunity to “bash” them, but I can’t help but think the responsibility for having an appropriate, approved routing for deplaning passenger’s is the airline’s responsibility, and the agent who misled us is ultimately at fault for the mix-up.
I couldn’t help but chuckle to see that while our increasingly impatient mob lobbed questions at the GTAA and security staff, the AC agent who had started the mess, with her head down, quickly snuck through the group and swiped a pass releasing her into the Airport beyond. Nobody even noticed.
The people who came over tried their best to get us on our way. The gentleman in the blue jacket tried to answer questions from "the mob", it is understandable that he became frustrated with us. The GTAA manager (?) kept us informed and was making every effort possible to get things going. The security guard seemed overwelmed, but I am sure this was outside her scope of work. Our flight showed next to no patience, we should threat eachother with respect.
I spoke the the US government official who seemed to be in charge, he told me that protocols must be followed for security measures. I for one am glad they took the time to have us go which ever way they saw fit. Security comes first. Ignorance, apparently for our flight, comes in at a close second.
Nov 10, 2010, 5:40 pm
#34
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: YOW
Programs: AC*SE MM, Accor Diamond, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 384
I did try to impart in my original post that I had not lost my cool; I was not a member of the angry shouting mob, and I agree that the behavior of some was reprehensible. A few acted like children. I just watched, aware that the situation was out of my control and no amount of venting would change the logistical confusion.
I maintain, however, that the initial mistake of misrouting us really is inexcusable, and I must respectfully disagree with the recent poster's assertions about the helpfulness of the staff. I found them to be flustered, chaotic, and ineffective in dealing with an unusual but clearly defined problem.
I maintain, however, that the initial mistake of misrouting us really is inexcusable, and I must respectfully disagree with the recent poster's assertions about the helpfulness of the staff. I found them to be flustered, chaotic, and ineffective in dealing with an unusual but clearly defined problem.
Nov 10, 2010, 5:44 pm
#35
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Well within Jazz territory
Programs: AC E
Posts: 951
Actually, common sense comes first. When applied liberally, there should be few security concerns. We are sheparded under the guise of 'security' far too often these days and sacrifice real freedom, safety and collective dignity as a result.
Oh, and welcome to FT.
Oh, and welcome to FT.
Nov 10, 2010, 5:45 pm
#36
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
I spoke the the US government official who seemed to be in charge, he told me that protocols must be followed for security measures. I for one am glad they took the time to have us go which ever way they saw fit. Security comes first. Ignorance, apparently for our flight, comes in at a close second.
Sorry but I must disagree.
You were not a security risk. Or if you were "protocol" would not really make a difference. This is just inept bureaucrats trying to justify their existence. Surely quickly letting people out who never got through US immigration in the first place without a fuss is not going to compromise security? Actually if you are truly security-minded only proper solution would have been to declare that there had been a security breach (simple fact), get everyone out and get the US-bound people though US immigration again, rather than subject you guys to silly paperwork?
I don't see that there should be room for patience in this sort of situation. As I already mentioned earlier in this thread, we once got wrongly directed to international rather than domestic arrival at YYC. Canadian customs/immigration quickly dealt with it using common sense, simply letting us out.
Nov 10, 2010, 5:49 pm
#37
Company Representative - Air Canada
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 24,215
Certainly an avoidable situation and we apologize for the inconvenience and we're investigating to the fullest extent to ensure that this doesn't happen again. Incident like this is extremely rare and we're bound by regulations which we must adhere to and the port director has the final say on when we can release our passengers (we were working very closely with them behind the scenes when this happened to have our passengers released as soon as possible).
Nov 10, 2010, 5:50 pm
#38
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Well within Jazz territory
Programs: AC E
Posts: 951
Strange...in several other threads, you make your argument with such lines as "every time I fly this airline" or "I repeatedly have troubles with AC when...". Do you fly them frequently, or avoid them - we're confused.
Excellent, because the story will then be subject to all manner of sensationalist blather, with any facts and helpful details being lost in the hype. A quiet incident review by the airline and airport authority with input from the two border service agencies would suffice.
Excellent, because the story will then be subject to all manner of sensationalist blather, with any facts and helpful details being lost in the hype. A quiet incident review by the airline and airport authority with input from the two border service agencies would suffice.
Nov 10, 2010, 8:15 pm
#39
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Body in Downtown YYZ, heart and mind elsewhere
Programs: UA 50K, refugee from AC E50K, Marriott Lifetime Plat
Posts: 5,132
It's good to know AC was working hard behind the scenes as this incident was unfolding. Too bad there wasn't an efficient way to communicate this at the time, but obviously the situation must have been rather fluid.
I think there's a good learning experience here for many parties - AC, GTAA, CBSA etc. Hopefully this rare incident will be highlighted in training as an example of what not to do. Even better perhaps would be a set of protocols that everyone can follow should something like this happen again.
I think there's a good learning experience here for many parties - AC, GTAA, CBSA etc. Hopefully this rare incident will be highlighted in training as an example of what not to do. Even better perhaps would be a set of protocols that everyone can follow should something like this happen again.
Nov 10, 2010, 8:47 pm
#40
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Programs: AC *E/PC Gold /BW Diamond/Hertz Gold Plus/SPG Gold/Marriot Silver/ TUMI Alpha
Posts: 1,470
Certainly an avoidable situation and we apologize for the inconvenience and we're investigating to the fullest extent to ensure that this doesn't happen again. Incident like this is extremely rare and we're bound by regulations which we must adhere to and the port director has the final say on when we can release our passengers (we were working very closely with them behind the scenes when this happened to have our passengers released as soon as possible).
I still believe AC should do SOMETHING for all passengers affected. Even a letter addressed to those on the flight would go a long way....
just my 1.4 cents
Nov 10, 2010, 9:56 pm
#41
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: YYZ/DLC
Programs: AP, HHonours Diamond
Posts: 3,722
It's a little scary how easily a single employee can breach the security by waving a pass and/or entering a code.
Nov 10, 2010, 10:07 pm
#42
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
A worse one
I have a similar story from a few years back. Circa 1998 I landed in Madrid in a 747 with Iberia (coming from EZE). We offboarded the plane, got tot he gate and started walkign thorugh a maze of hallways with no indications but no alternative routes to go. Suddenly, we realized we were in the exterior world. No customs, no immigrations, no nothing (and no baggage claim). After realizing that someone had made a terrible mistake we started pushing the 300-something passengers in the opposite direction, trying to get back to where we started. Halfay through we found a bunch of horrified gate operators that were trying to catch up with us after realizing the mistake. Fortunately we all went through the normal channels with no issues, but I always wondered what would have happened if some of us had just left the terminal.
Nov 10, 2010, 10:18 pm
#43
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
I have a similar story from a few years back. Circa 1998 I landed in Madrid in a 747 with Iberia (coming from EZE). We offboarded the plane, got tot he gate and started walkign thorugh a maze of hallways with no indications but no alternative routes to go. Suddenly, we realized we were in the exterior world. No customs, no immigrations, no nothing (and no baggage claim). After realizing that someone had made a terrible mistake we started pushing the 300-something passengers in the opposite direction, trying to get back to where we started. Halfay through we found a bunch of horrified gate operators that were trying to catch up with us after realizing the mistake. Fortunately we all went through the normal channels with no issues, but I always wondered what would have happened if some of us had just left the terminal.
Bottom line, worst scenario, you might miss an entry stamp in your passport? But surely, except in China and maybe the US no one would try to keep you forcefully in a country that you don't care about based upon a stupid thing like that? And if they did, at least they would have to feed you....
Nov 10, 2010, 11:09 pm
#44
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Little dot in Asia
Programs: AA-EP, TK-*G, HL-DM, HY-GLO, MR-LTP
Posts: 25,932
Sounds like AC...goofed again.
I flew YVR-YUL connecting in YYC. It was the last late flight from YVR .. and we arrived to a somewhat deserted terminal. Or so we thought. We walked out to the walkway to be met with a closed and locked door. There was an escalator going up and we were about to go on it till someone said, 'Wait. That goes to the US area'. So we wait... and waited for a good 20 mins before a gate agent even appeared. Even the pilots seemed amused. But funny is that no one shouted bloody murder.. everyone seemed rather calm.
When the agent came on, she didn't apologise. In fact she made us feel as if we made her walk all the way from Gate X to come and open the door for us.
I flew YVR-YUL connecting in YYC. It was the last late flight from YVR .. and we arrived to a somewhat deserted terminal. Or so we thought. We walked out to the walkway to be met with a closed and locked door. There was an escalator going up and we were about to go on it till someone said, 'Wait. That goes to the US area'. So we wait... and waited for a good 20 mins before a gate agent even appeared. Even the pilots seemed amused. But funny is that no one shouted bloody murder.. everyone seemed rather calm.
When the agent came on, she didn't apologise. In fact she made us feel as if we made her walk all the way from Gate X to come and open the door for us.
Nov 11, 2010, 12:49 am
#45
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC Elite, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 123
With respect I have to disagree. You were already behind the security wall, keeping you there was if anything, a greater security risk than alowing you to leave. As a Canadians who have not left the contry it is questionable if they even have the authority to question you (being in an aiport does not automatically afford that authority), they certainly don't have the authority to detain you.