Mini RTW Questions

Old Jul 30, 2014, 11:30 am
  #3061  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: YYZ
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Originally Posted by yyzcdg

We were wanting to change to add HKG and switch to KIX

YYZ-TPE BR 35 (STOP)
TPE-HKG BR 867 (turnaround)
HKG-KIX NH176 (Open-jaw)
HND-YYZ AC 6

Buy the "Experience Japan Fare" 10000yen for the domestic 1 way to fly back to your first Japanese port.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 11:33 am
  #3062  
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Originally Posted by beep88
Buy the "Experience Japan Fare" 10000yen for the 1 way to fly back to your first Japanese port.
No - use Avios to fly return. 4,500 each way and $0 of taxes! (but make sure you donate at least $1 to Unicef or whatever so that you can book online without needing to call the call centre).
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 3:40 pm
  #3063  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
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Posts: 3,357
Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim
Your open jaw must be on the departure or destination, per their rules, which they have been kind of stickier to lately.
What is your exact routing with stops?
I respect your and other knowledgeable FTs very much but how do I reconcile your comment with the statement by Aeroplan below:

For Intercontinental travel (travel between two continents): Two stopovers are permitted in addition to the point of turnaround. One open jaw is permitted in lieu of one of the two stopovers.

Based on your above statement I can for example:
YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - YYZ oj

and not

YYY - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - OOO oj
JJJ - YYC

Classical is:

YYY - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - OOO/JJJ stop
OOO/JJJ - YYC

All else being appropriate.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 3:48 pm
  #3064  
 
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YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - YYZ oj (legal)

is basically:

YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - YYZ stop
YYZ - YYC home

Where YYZ OJ YYC at departure city replaces the YYZ stopover in the second example

Your illegal example:

YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - OOO oj
JJJ - YYC

Is basically a 3 stop + destination (4 total) itinerary:

YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - OOO stop
OOO - JJJ stop
JJJ - YYC

Which is why in-transit open jaws shouldn't be allowed. Of course, if an agent sees it the same way as you do, then it'll work (and has happened)
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:01 pm
  #3065  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West
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Originally Posted by crimsona
Is basically a 3 stop + destination (4 total) itinerary:

YYC - SSS stop
SSS - DDD dest
DDD - OOO stop
OOO - JJJ stop
JJJ - YYC

Which is why in-transit open jaws shouldn't be allowed. Of course, if an agent sees it the same way as you do, then it'll work (and has happened)
Not flying OOO - JJJ, and you have not addressed the eroplan's statement. To me its says we can have
home, 2 stops, destination or
home, 1 stop, 1oj, destination.

Actually no mention of OJ being at home or destination.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:15 pm
  #3066  
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Originally Posted by 1Newflyer
Not flying OOO - JJJ, and you have not addressed the eroplan's statement. To me its says we can have
home, 2 stops, destination or
home, 1 stop, 1oj, destination.

Actually no mention of OJ being at home or destination.
Your interpretation is actually completely correct and is just how I used to treat it until agents began denying it on exactly the reason I gave. I've managed to get a few OJs in the past based on exactly this logic, but these days they quote an apparently unwritten rule that says OJ is on departure or arrival only. I don't really get it.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:16 pm
  #3067  
 
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Open jaw is a defined term, and is nothing to do with having a break in the middle:

http://www.atpco.net/atpco/products/glossary_o.shtml

open jaw
1. A trip that is essentially of a round trip or circle trip nature except that the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival, or vice versa, are not the same.

3. (Subcategory 101, International fares) Using applicable half-round trip fares:

Turnaround Open Jaw = The outward point of arrival and the inward point of departure are different.

Origin Open Jaw = The outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival are different.

Single Open Jaw = Either the outward point of arrival and the inward point of departure are different, or the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival are different

Double Open Jaw = Both the outward point of arrival and the inward point of departure are different, and the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival are different

Open Jaw = Any of the above.
By having a break in the middle, you are basically adding another stopover to your itinerary.

This is what I believe to be the reason behind the enforcement
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:21 pm
  #3068  
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Originally Posted by crimsona
Open jaw is a defined term, and is nothing to do with having a break in the middle:

http://www.atpco.net/atpco/products/glossary_o.shtml



By having a break in the middle, you are basically adding another stopover to your itinerary.

This is what I believe to be the reason behind the enforcement
Interesting. You're likely correct about this and this is probably why Aeroplan disallows it.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:33 pm
  #3069  
 
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Originally Posted by Pseudo Nim
Interesting. You're likely correct about this and this is probably why Aeroplan disallows it.

Good definition of OJ, but it does not contradict their own notes in the rules:

1 stop 1 oj, 1 destination and back home.

Conditions and definitions are compatible.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:45 pm
  #3070  
 
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Originally Posted by 1Newflyer
Good definition of OJ, but it does not contradict their own notes in the rules:

1 stop 1 oj, 1 destination and back home.

Conditions and definitions are compatible.
But OJ must happen at the destination OR origin, which is the industry definition.
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Old Jul 30, 2014, 4:47 pm
  #3071  
 
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Originally Posted by 1Newflyer
Good definition of OJ, but it does not contradict their own notes in the rules:

1 stop 1 oj, 1 destination and back home.

Conditions and definitions are compatible.
I disagree:

A trip that is essentially of a round trip or circle trip nature except that the outward point of departure and the inward point of arrival, or vice versa, are not the same.
Since you are neither at the point of departure or point of turnaround, it's not a legal open jaw since your origin AND destination remain the same.

As to what it's called, I wish I knew the term, but by my interpretation of things, a surface break like that is technically something else. I'm sure it might be possible with the right agent, but from experience, I won't bother trying.
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Old Jul 31, 2014, 12:13 am
  #3072  
 
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From my understanding the OJ doesn't have to do with being at origin or destination (POT), but rather that it takes up another stopover. Your POT can't be considered a stopover, so if you have an open jaw at a point that's not your point of turnaround that's your other stopover.

So,

AAA-BBB
BBB-POT
POT-CCC
CCC-AAA

2 stops + dest, legal

AAA-BBB
BBB-POT
POT-CCC

stop + oj + dest, legal

AAA-BBB
BBB-POT
CCC-AAA

stop + oj + dest, legal

AAA-POT
POT-BBB
CCC-AAA

that's also dest + oj + stop and should be legal, afaik.

AAA-BBB
BBB-POT
POT-CCC
DDD-AAA

bbb is your first stop, pot is your destination, and ccc/ddd is openjaw plus stop. that makes it two stop plus oj, which is illegal.


So in regards to this trip:

YYZ - TPE (stop 1) - HKG (Point of Turn-around) - KIX (Open Jaw)/HND - YYZ

hkg is your dest
tpe is your stop
kix/hnd is a stop + oj.

that's two stops + oj + dest, which is illegal.

now, if you did yyz-hkg-kix/hnd-yyz, i think that'd be legal because it's stop + oj + dest.
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Old Aug 17, 2014, 9:36 am
  #3073  
 
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Mini RTW Planning: SIN, AGR, and VFA oh my!

Hello:

I would like to plan for a mini-RTW next Spring in Business Class for 150,000 miles. I would like to visit Singapore, Agra, and Victoria Falls (in no particular order). I would really like to try flying once on NH, even though the fuel surcharges bug me. Otherwise, the lower the surcharges, the better. I also would like to ensure that the long haul routes are in Business Class.

Getting to/from Agra seems really complicated as there never seems to be availability directly to/from DEL or BOM on AI... am I missing something here? It sure makes it seem that I have a lot of segments because of this... is this a concern?

I have found the following availability using aeroplan.ca by breaking up the plan, but need to know if I am exceeding any mileage or any other issues that I may have before I call into Aeroplan. I am worried that this is probably going to be a no but would appreciate help in finding a way to make it happen...

Any help would be appreciated!

03JUN AC8301 X YYC 0850 SEA 0923 CRJ
03JUN NH177 I SEA 1315 NRT 1540+1 787
04JUN NH955 I NRT 1720 PEK 2010 B767
05JUN SQ801 I PEK 0005 SIN 0625 777

08JUN SQ402 I SIN 0235 DEL 0535 330
08JUN AI406 X DEL 1030 AGR 1315 320 (1 Stop)

10JUN AI406 X AGR 1350 HJR 1430 320
10JUN AI405 X HJR 1505 DEL 1800 320 (1 Stop)
10JUN AI805 I DEL 2000 BOM 2210 321
11JUN SA285 I BOM 0135 JNB 0655 330
11JUN SA40 I JNB 1050 VFA 1235 319

16JUN SA41 I VFA 1315 JNB 1455 319
16JUN SA224 I JNB 2320 GRU 0455+1 330
17JUN UA844 I GRU 2110 ORD 0535+1 777
18JUN UA1524 X ORD 0730 YYC 1018 737

Who is up for the challenge?

Last edited by YYC009; Aug 17, 2014 at 10:10 am
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Old Aug 17, 2014, 10:46 am
  #3074  
 
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So, JNB is your destination as the furthest point from YYC.

MPM5 over the Atlantic is 12,594. 16,362 over the Pacific.

Your outbound leg over the Pacific is 17,543 miles, so it's too far. The only way it'll work is if you fly SIN-BOM, then buy a revenue ticket to/from AGR and then resume at BOM and go on to JNB. It just squeezes in under the limit then.

Aside from that, you're backtracking to DEL (visiting it twice on your way to JNB), which won't be allowed. Nor will backtracking through JNB to get to/from VFA, which will also need to be a revenue ticket (unless you can find a way out of VFA that doesn't involve going through JNB).
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Old Aug 17, 2014, 1:31 pm
  #3075  
 
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Originally Posted by krayZpaving
So, JNB is your destination as the furthest point from YYC.

MPM5 over the Atlantic is 12,594. 16,362 over the Pacific.

Your outbound leg over the Pacific is 17,543 miles, so it's too far. The only way it'll work is if you fly SIN-BOM, then buy a revenue ticket to/from AGR and then resume at BOM and go on to JNB. It just squeezes in under the limit then.

Aside from that, you're backtracking to DEL (visiting it twice on your way to JNB), which won't be allowed. Nor will backtracking through JNB to get to/from VFA, which will also need to be a revenue ticket (unless you can find a way out of VFA that doesn't involve going through JNB).
Agree on the backtracking through DEL to AGR. Personally, it's only a couple of hours drive if you hire a driver for the day, and considering the state of the Delhi airport it'll probably be about the same duration and would definitely not be very costly.

As for the JNB/VFA backtrack, that would work if VFA was the destination, so he would be visiting it once in each direction.
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