Executive/Exec First-whats the diff?
 

I just received some info in the mail as I
will be changing over from CPlus to
Aeroplan. What is the difference between
Executive class and Executive First? Is
E 1st only on some routes like Europe, and
on certain aircraft?

I believe Executive First is another name for international business class and executive class is domestic J class. I don't know what the difference is and will leave it up to ACers to describe it.

I would say the following differences:

- huge difference in distance between seats
- much more seat pitch
- boarding drinks
- "vanity" kits
- more of an international menu (?)
- multiple meals (okay, due to flight length)

Dorian

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Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

Executive First is the front cabin on most international routes. The seats are generally 55"-60" pitch, have individual video screens, etc. However, there are some domestic/transborder routes that have Exec First. Earlier this yer I flew YYZ-YUL-FRA, and I thought that I would have to make a connection as the flight numbers were different. However, it was the SAME aircraft - but I had to leave the plane while it was cleaned. Executive first is only available on the following aircraft - 747, 767ER, A330, A340 (I think that that is complete)

Executive class is the more normal front cabin or most domestic routes and transborder. Seat pitch is much less as Dorian says, and they do not have in seat video. Typically found on the A319 and A320, and other aircraft that only fly in North America.

Hope that this helps.

[This message has been edited by MD (edited 11-01-2000).]

Dorian and MD pretty much covered it all.

90% of the difference is in the aircraft itself, only about 10% is service difference.

Air Canada has some 767's that are used on intercontinental routes, these have the much bigger space between the business class seats, and legrests on the seats, some have individual TV screens, etc.

They have other 767's (they look the same to me from the outside) that have all the business class seats squished together, no legrests, and smaller kitchens at the front of the plane.

The intercontinental 767's sometimes get used on domestic routes (mostly transcontinental but sometimes even Rapidair), but the domestic ones, with the squished together seats, may not be used on intercontinental routes, because the cargo compartment fire extinguishing system does not meet the rules for extended range operations over water. [Short answer - for ETOPS, the fire suppression system has to not only be able to extinguish the fire, but also to keep it extinguished for quite a long time - like, until the plane can find a suitable place to land].

Anyway, the domestic planes that have the seats all squished together are called "Executive" class, and the intercontinental planes with the space between the seats are called "Executive First".

I'm not sure about the new 340's and 330's - probably all of them are ETOPS - so I guess they also get more pitch between the business class seats, thus "Executive First" perhaps someone else can confirm this.

So far as service is concerned, on the intercontinental Executive First flights, the waitstaff serve the food from a cart that rolls down the aisle, and on the plain "Executive" class flights, the food is served on an individual tray, sort of like a TV dinner.

Food on Executive First is loaded the same way you would buy it at the grocery store - for example, the dessert cakes are whole cakes, the fruit salad comes in a big bowl, cheese comes in bulk - so it is possible to go to the kitchen later in the flight and get more (assuming you move quickly enough, before the front cabin staff send the leftovers to the rear galley for the back cabin staff to eat).

I don't fly domestic much, perhaps I have missed some of the finer points of the service procedures there.

Empress is correct in his explanation, while the others add further "colour" to describe the enhancement of services and actual layout of the aircraft utilized. AC's domestic and transborder front cabin service is called Executive Class. The seat, except for being larger and having more pitch than the economy [Hospitality Class] seat, is quite different from the Executive First product. Menu is enchanced and drinks are free, but other perks -- amenity kits, lounge access, etc. -- are not provided. Intercontinental offers multi-channel video with TVs rising from armrests [or individual videoplayback units on CP].

The front cabin on international, or intercontinental, flights is called Executive First (except on some routes to LHR from the Atlantic provinces where traffic volumes don't generate enough money to provide the real Executive First service, and domestic version 767 aircraft can be used). Beyond the seats, the food service is multi-course, wine selection enhanced, and items like amenity kits as welll as MLL and Arrivals Lounge (at LHR and YVR] access are included in the product.

As described, AC's fleet consists of 4 types of widebodies capable of trans-oceanic [intercontinental] travel. 747, 330 and 340 aircraft are configured exclusively in the intercontinental version of front cabin: 55-inch plus pitch, larger seats, etc. The 767 fleet, however, is mixed with both 200 and 300 models, most configured to intercontinental service standards, others to domestic/transborder. The domestic/ transborder seating is a standard J or F domestic seat and pitch, or "squished" as Max Power has said.

CP fleet includes all intercontinental standard seating on 747s and a similar mix in the 767 fleet as found on AC. It's intercontinental service was called alternately Empress Class or Business Class, while the domestic/transborder used Business Class. Deatils of inflight services are similar to those on AC. Domestic product has seats which feature leg rests which extend out from the seat, unlike AC's seats which do not have this feature, only leg rests attached to seat in front.

For fleet deployment and efficient aircraft utilization purposes, select intercontinental configured 767s (and all of the other widebody aircraft mentioned) may be found from time to time on select high-density/high-traffic domestic or transborder routes, though this does not indicate a service enhancement since there is little in cabin service difference from normal domestic. There is no such thing as Executive First on these routes, only the seating will be different from standard Executive class. If you end up on one of these flights, in the front cabin, enjoy the major difference: space -- the final frontier.

Another point, and contrary to Maxpower, is that AC does use the "domestic" 767 on the YYZ-GLA route. This would have executive, not executive first, service.

OK, I have to apologize, MD caught me being sloppy on the reply I posted late last night. Let me try to recover my credibility by explaining things more precisely:

Air Canada operates 3 different variants of the B767-233 aircraft, and (not counting the aircraft that have just been inherited from CP), one variant of the B767-333.

Air Canada obtained their –233’s from a variety of sources, some were built by Boeing to the specifications of Air Canada, some were bought from Air New Zealand, some were bought from Pacific Western Airways. Hence the three different equipment configurations found within the same model (-233) of aircraft.

There are a number of technical requirements that must be met for an aircraft to conduct EROPS operations (EROPS means “Engines Running Or Passengers Swimming”, and governs long, overwater operations).

One specification – the one I referred to in my earlier post – concerns fire suppression in the cargo area. Air Canada fin numbers 602, 603 and 604 only have 60 minute fire suppression capability, so, logically, these aircraft must not at any time be more than 59 minutes away from an airport – this rules out all transatlantic and even certain Caribbean operations. Fin numbers 601, 605 through 608, and 671 and 672 have 90 minute fire suppression.

Another specification for EROPS – actually, more simple than that, just a practical requirement for flight beyond “line of sight” transmission to a ground station – is that the aircraft be equipped with a HF (high frequency) radio, to enable a continuous listening watch to be maintained on ATC (air traffic control) frequencies. None of the aircraft 601 through 607 inclusive have HF radios. So, these 7 airplanes are not going to be straying very far from shore.

Fin numbers 608, 671 and 672 have one HF radio only, and 90 minute fire suppression. They may be used on North American routes and certain Caribbean routes where a large portion of the flight is conducted over water. But they don’t have either an adequate navigation database in the Honeywell FMS (flight management system) or sufficient backup electrical generation capability (a HMG, or hydraulic motor generator, which provides a third source of electrical generation, in addition to the APU, when operating single engine) to operate on long overwater routes. Even though they do have European navigation data in the FMS, they don’t meet all the other criteria required for EROPS, and are thus restricted to North American and all Caribbean operations.

This leaves the remaining twelve –233 series that have EROPS approval for either 138 minutes (fin 609 or 610), or for 180 minutes (fin 611 through 622 inclusive, fin number 620 does not exist). All of these aircraft have 2 HF radios, and a HMG. These aircraft may be used on intercontinental (EROPS) operations between North America and Europe, but because of a lack of memory storage capacity in the FMS, they don’t have the navigation database information required for Asian operations.

I’m pretty sure that fin numbers 611 through 622 have decent seat pitch in J class, because these planes are often used on my regular route, YYZ-ZRH. It is possible that 609 and 610 have the squished together seats in business class, and these aircraft, given their 138 minute EROPS capability, could be operated to certain UK destinations, because these destinations could be reached without getting more than 138 minutes away from Canada, Greenland, or Iceland at any time. These are probably the 2 planes that MD was referring to.

Lastly, there are the larger B767 –333’s – all of these have 180 minute EROPS,(which includes 2 HF radios, a HMG, and 180 minute fire suppression), and they also have worldwide navigation databases. They all have “Executive First” seat configuration.

All of this information comes from the technical data that Air Canada supplies to Super Elite members in the super-secret “Super Elite” info-book. I only wish they would include more precise information about the seat pitch.

Executive class does get lounge access within North America, now. Full J class or rewards only, not upgrades.

Just to supplement the ETOPS discussion, this does not apply to the 340, as it is not a twin-engine aircraft. All of the 330's are equipped for 138 minute ETOPS. They do not have the range to require 180.

Interesting to note that although the ETOPS rules don't apply to the 340, the 340 has, historically, a higher rate of air turnbacks and diversions than the 767.


Source: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/for.../forum0599.pdf (page 6)

"If it's not Boeing, I'm not going" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

Great, detailed info, guys. Thankyou. I guess
we'll have to wait & see what type of service
we get on the new YYC-HNL service. We DO
know it will be on CP metal using their 763
aircraft, so what does this mean for seat
type in the front cabin? Our tickets do say
Executive, not Executive first. I assume this
means even though its a 6 hour flight, the
amenities will be similar to domestic business? Will this have changed from what
CP used to offer on their HNL routes in
business prior to the merger?

Simple answer, call the airline and ask whether it's five across or six across in J. If the former, it's one of the "Club Empress" seats, similar to Executive First. If it's the latter, the seats are domestic style.

As for service, though, it will be domestic. Executive First service is only offered in J on overseas flights. Even though crossing the Pacific to HNL involves going over a lot of sea, it doesn't count in airline-speak.

CP will be using the CLUB EMPRESS service to HNL (configuration 5 rows of 1-2-2). Unlike AC, CP does treats HNL like an international destination, therefore they offer international business class service on flights to HNL.

Empress, I like your answer better. I was
hoping that would be the case. The seatmap
on ITN shows 5 across. Are any of CP's 763's
configured 6 across in J? I don't think so,
unless those 2 they got from Asiana last
spring are like that.

Actually CP did lease a couple more 763 and configured J class in 6 rows of 2-2-2 seating. Those aircraft are strictly used for domestic runs.