Will EI drop UA for AA?

Old Sep 26, 16, 8:07 am
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Will EI drop UA for AA?

Is that decision final as they move towards OW? Any timeline?
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Old Sep 26, 16, 8:34 am
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They cannot do so; IAG is bound by the terms of the merger approval that EI maintains all its current SPAs.

Only United could decide to end its relationship with Aer Lingus; Aer Lingus is unable to do so.

Besides - Aer Lingus already cooperates with American Airlines. According to the same European Commission approval document, they transferred approx 25,000 pax to AA at LHR, and a further 15,000 pax to US Airways at Boston and Heathrow in 2014, in comparison to approx 65,000 pax transferred to United at ORD/LHR.
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Old Sep 29, 16, 10:26 am
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Correct me if I am wrong but that just commits EI to accept and deliver feed for its short haul routes in Ireland and the U.K. Onward transfers in the US, such as with UA at ORD and JetBlue at JFK will likely migrate to feeding AA routes at those hubs. In time, I believe it is intended that EI will join AA, BA, IB and AY in the transatlantic joint business arrangement.
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Old Sep 29, 16, 11:00 am
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EI/IAG is bound to enter into an SPA with, amongst others, non oneworld airlines which provide or will provide a non-stop service between Dublin and Chicago (line item (570) iv above). This means United (the only non-oneworld airline that currently provides non-stop service between DUB and ORD).

As such, for as long as UA operate DUB-ORD (and/or LHR-ORD, covered in line item (570) (i) above) and for as long as UA want to maintain the PSA, Aer Lingus/IAG cannot stop/drop it.

EI is free to co-operate with AA, or anyone else they choose, but they are not free to "drop UA for AA" as you put it in your question.

Only UA can decide to terminate the current arrangement. For EI/IAG to unilaterally terminate the existing arrangements they had when they were an independent carrier would be uncompetitive, and therefore such decisions have been taken out of the hands of EI/IAG and instead placed in the relevant partners' hands.

Last edited by irishguy28; Sep 29, 16 at 11:05 am
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Old Sep 30, 16, 3:22 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
EI/IAG is bound to enter into an SPA with, amongst others, non oneworld airlines which provide or will provide a non-stop service between Dublin and Chicago (line item (570) iv above). This means United (the only non-oneworld airline that currently provides non-stop service between DUB and ORD).

As such, for as long as UA operate DUB-ORD (and/or LHR-ORD, covered in line item (570) (i) above) and for as long as UA want to maintain the PSA, Aer Lingus/IAG cannot stop/drop it.

EI is free to co-operate with AA, or anyone else they choose, but they are not free to "drop UA for AA" as you put it in your question.

Only UA can decide to terminate the current arrangement. For EI/IAG to unilaterally terminate the existing arrangements they had when they were an independent carrier would be uncompetitive, and therefore such decisions have been taken out of the hands of EI/IAG and instead placed rin the relevant partners' hands.
I wasn't the OP if that confuses. My point is different; EI flies direct to ORD and feeds to UA there currently. That is not protected under the commitments which requires EI/IAG to support the UA transatlantic service rather than to protect UA's feed FROM EI's transatlantic routes.
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Old Sep 30, 16, 4:24 am
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I guess you do have a point. The concessions are in place to prevent United from being "shut out" on the European side, but EI could probably decide to stop selling onward connections on United out of ORD.

I'm not aware of what routes EI codeshares on out of ORD and to what extent these could be replicated on AA services, either from ORD or from JFK/BOS/LAX/SFO
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Old Sep 30, 16, 11:10 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
I guess you do have a point. The concessions are in place to prevent United from being "shut out" on the European side, but EI could probably decide to stop selling onward connections on United out of ORD.

I'm not aware of what routes EI codeshares on out of ORD and to what extent these could be replicated on AA services, either from ORD or from JFK/BOS/LAX/SFO
AA has a significant network out of ORD (and JFK for that matter). It is tiny at BOS. EI's current codeshare partner ex JFK is JetBlue and I see that being changed to AA and I think it's a no brained at ORD too. That's what I read as the OP's question, ie to which airline will EI feed traffic from its US gateways.
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Old Sep 30, 16, 3:54 pm
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I might be wrong but I don't think an SPA (special prorate agreement) is the same as a codeshare agreement, and while EI might be required to keep interlining with UA, I'd be surprised if they were required to maintain the codeshare. AFAIK, an SPA simply specifies how the revenue will be prorated when two airlines interline.

I think this is similar to the BA takeover of BD, where BA had to agree to allow interlining at favourable rates on certain shorthaul routes, and that IAG have committed EI to do the same.

I expect that the EI/UA codeshares and frequent flyer agreements will disappear as soon as EI joins oneworld and the AA/BA trans-Atlantic JB. It will still be possible to book UA connecting to EI (and vice-versa), but it probably won't be as a codeshare.

So yes, EI will drop UA for AA. Timeline is the same as everything else IAG/EI - unknown!
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Old Oct 28, 16, 10:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Irish Independent
Mr Walsh said Aer Lingus will initially do more code-sharing with American before joining the venture.

"Then it's how we bring them [Aer Lingus] into the joint business," he said.
"Aer Lingus is unique in terms of how it operates and can operate on the transatlantic, and therefore we need to ensure that flexibility is retained and not in any way inhibited by being part of the joint business.

"We don't want a straitjacket placed on Aer Lingus," the chief executive said.
Mr Walsh said that American previously "didn't fully understand the Aer Lingus model", and that it now "better understands" the opportunity that Aer Lingus presents, both as a standalone entity and as part of an alliance.
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Old Oct 30, 16, 4:17 pm
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I'm a bit surprised IAG doesn't seem to be in any hurry to add EI to the TATL joint-venture.

I would have thought it would have been an easier process than rejoining Oneworld and would have yielded more revenue benefits. Witness how DL has set-up a JV with VS but has not used its shareholding to press VS to join SkyTeam.

I can't help but wonder whether there is more going on in the background regarding the relationship with AA or IAG's plans for EI for transatlantic?
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Old Oct 31, 16, 2:12 am
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EI cannot join the joint venture until they are back in oneworld.

And the technical preparations and behind-the-scenes work to enable (re-)joining the alliance takes up to 18 months to arrange.
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Old Oct 31, 16, 5:25 pm
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I find Mr. Walsh's remarks quite interesting. EI at the moment codeshares with UA but also KLM. I have flown plenty of EI-DL itineraries as a result as well as EI-UA a few times. These are easily bookable and very competitive in terms of fares. But EI-AA still to me often shows bad fares, bad connections. In fact, if you wish to book ORK-anywhere in the U.S., you will be able to do that online via KLM, UA as well as BA but not EI or AA.

All of this is pretty much where it was a year or two ago and essentially is indicative of an Aer Lingus that's primarily an intra-European carrier, which is happy to leave good chunks of the ex-Ireland transatlantic traffic to larger airlines. And with no preference shown to OneWorld at all. Given their relative fiscal success recently this seems to have worked out for Aer Lingus but surely even Mr. Walsh won't be able to sell that to AA as a sustainable state of affairs. AA surely must push EI eventually to take its place as a feeder for their network.
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Old Nov 1, 16, 1:31 am
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EI-AA is only available through TA currently, and as there is no codeshare the fares might not be great

The good news is the EI-AA IT talk to each other so itineraries and check in work smoothly
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Old Nov 1, 16, 1:56 am
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Originally Posted by Ber2dca View Post
I find Mr. Walsh's remarks quite interesting. EI at the moment codeshares with UA but also KLM.
EI doesn't actually codeshare with KLM - and, to the best of my knowledge, never has done. It is KLM that has codeshared on EI - on DUB-AMS-DUB for years, and on ORK-AMS-ORK since 2001 - but given that KLM started flying the DUB route for the first time in 50 years last Sunday, that codesharing on the DUB route is coming to an end in the coming weeks/months.

KLM are maintaining their codeshare on the ORK-AMS-ORK routes - but there was a period of several months where that codeshare appeared to be ending in June of next year.

Originally Posted by Ber2dca View Post
Given their relative fiscal success recently this seems to have worked out for Aer Lingus but surely even Mr. Walsh won't be able to sell that to AA as a sustainable state of affairs. AA surely must push EI eventually to take its place as a feeder for their network.
Oneworld has always been the "loosest" of the alliances, where all sorts of outside collaborations, or internal antipathies, have been tolerated. (Look at QF breaking their long-standing relationship with BA and getting into bed with EK; look at how CX is viewed coolly by most other alliance members, notably QF).

AA partners with several non-alliance carriers where it suits them; they even partner with Etihad (and last year even quietly removed all previous restrictions to mileage earning on EY for AAdvantage members) despite their public stance of being against the ME3 carriers. Despite what Wee Willy Winky may have said, AA know very well that airlines must live in the real world, not in some alliance fantasy, and do business in the real world.

You can probably expect that EI would pivot from using UA and instead use AA where possible/practical; if AA has a problem with that, then I presume they would maintain their UA and B6 codeshares as is.
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