FlyerTalk Forums - View Single Post - End of ID/BP cross-check at boarding in France for AF flights, starting May 15th
Old May 13, 2012, 4:15 am
  #30  
Richelieu
 
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Originally Posted by orbitmic
The airlines were neither in demand nor responsible for the checks, and the same airlines simply do not carry the same checks when flying from other airports (e.g. if you fly BRU-LYS you don't need to show an identity document when boarding in Brussels but when you fly your return from LYS-BRU you do).
I have no problem with any country saying you can fly anonymously: I don't think that checking ID improves security in any way on a plane. On the other hand, why would an airport be the only place in a country where your ID can't be checked?

Schengen agreements provide for free travel within the Schengen area (no need for a passport, no need to ask for visa or respect 90-days stays, etc.) They don't states that you should be able to avoid ID checks within the Schengen area, just that border crossing shouldn't be treated differently than domestic travel. ID checks at airports are explicitely part of the Schengen Agreements :

The abolition of border control at internal borders shall not affect: [...]
(b) security checks on persons carried out at ports and airports by the competent authorities under the law of each Member State, by port or airport officials or carriers, provided that such checks are also carried out on persons travelling within a Member State;
It was negociated well before airport paranoia arose. The principle are within the Schengen Agreements themselves. Vigipirate is an implementation of them by the French government.

France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).
Well, I didn't read the Schengen agreement like you did.

(14) This Regulation is without prejudice to checks carried out under general police powers and security checks on persons identical to those carried out for domestic flights, to the possibilities for Member States to carry out exceptional checks on baggage in accordance with Council Regulation (EEC) No 3925/91 of 19 December 1991 concerning the elimination of controls and formalities applicable to the cabin and hold baggage of persons taking an intra-Community flight and the baggage of persons making an intra-Community sea crossing [5], and to national law on carrying travel or identity documents or to the requirement that persons notify the authorities of their presence on the territory of the Member State in question.
If national laws requires carrying ID, it is in concordance with the Schengen agreement. You're free to travel, but not necessarily to travel anonymously.

I can see that you object strongly to ID check, but this has nothing to do with Schengen. I strongly object to the liquid and gel silliness but I won't claim it's against the principle of free circulation of goods.

and in France, we always had that obligation so took our id with us out of principle.
Technically, you need to be able to prove your ID, not carry ID. Call for witness is an established way of doing that according to French law (but I've never seen anyone doing it except for children).


However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.

According to Brussels Airport website
:

En période d'affluence, il faut prévoir plus de temps pour trouver un parking, passer par les comptoirs de ticketing et d'enregistrement, se soumettre aux contrôles d'identité et de sûreté et embarquer à bord de l'avion.
They are speaking of ID checks at security. I am confused, now: are they checking ID there? If so, what is the difference between checking there and checking at boarding?

Brussels Airport FAQ states :

Selon votre destination, il vous faudra une carte d'identité ou un passeport. Pour certains pays, il faut y ajouter un visa.
Attention: L'attestation de perte de carte d'identité n'est pas un document valable pour voyager!
Your relatives should have complied. I am not calling them silly, but the FAQ clearly doesn't advise traveling without any ID for any destination.

Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.
This is not my reading of Article 21 and the preamble I quoted above.

On the tangeant point of reclearing security, is there a list of non-compliant airport? It could be a useful FT resource.

Last edited by Richelieu; May 13, 2012 at 5:04 am
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