Piedmont767

I am trying to book flights to Barcelona from Charlotte next June, how my Mother and Father who are taking a cruise next June. However when trying to book these flights, it only comes up with connecting flights through Philly and Miami- it is the same for Charlotte-Lisbon/Brussels/Manchester. What is going on? Have these flights been cut?

I have not heard anything regarding these flights, nor has there been a press release. And I am surprised that, if these aren't doing well (which I don't think so), US/AA are not going to trying again next year, like they did in 2012 for the new Charlotte to Dublin/Madrid flights.

Also this thread will probably be moved to the "Routes- Discussion and Speculation" thread, but it will probably be mixed up in a sea of different discussions. So Mods- please don't move this thread, thank you!

3Cforme

Those routes were introduced as 'seasonal service'. It is common to see how routes perform financially before they are renewed for the next season.

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/trave...to_europe.html

aztimm

As this refers to US-operated flights, I am moving this thread over to the pre-merger US forum.
Send me a PM if you wish to discuss.

I do know that some of these destinations are seasonal, and perhaps it hasn't yet been determined if/when they'll resume next year.

DCdeacon

I think it's not uncommon to wait until later in the year to load season schedules/routes for the following year. I'm not saying these routes will still be around next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't loaded them, even if they will be flown.

perseus11

Those flights were set up as pre-merger PHL reliever flights. With JFK and MIA in the mix now, IMO, they will not return. Both LIS aand BCN are PHL seasonal and they are bookable for 2015 (BCN from Mar 5, 2015 and LIS from Mar 28, 2015). If the CLT flights were planned to return, especially the air/cruise schedule dependent BCN flight, I'd think they'd already be bookable. MAYBE CLT will get a (new) seasonal MAD, but other than LHR, I don't predict much more. I'm afraid the CLT dreams of CLT-TLV, etc. are just that.

Piedmont767

Firstly, the merger was about making American great again and putting it back on top- CLT is a great airport to fly TATL due to the low airport costs and number of available connecting flights to other destinations. TATL flying from CLT is safe.

Also CLT already has a flight to Madrid, launched in 2010, which I suspect will become year round at a later point with an A330-200.

FWAAA

Agreed. When these flights were announced in October, 2013, the DoJ had thrown its monkey wrench in the merger plans and US had to make some stand-alone decisions in case the DoJ successfully blocked the merger. I sincerely doubt that these four flights would have been announced had the DoJ not filed suit.

Additionally, I suspect (but have no proof) that the four new European flights served a valuable PR purpose as well. They showed that US was willing to expand in Charlotte regardless of the merger, a sign of good faith, and thus they were flown this summer even though the merger was cleared. Their duration was trimmed earlier this year due to weaker than expected ticket sales. I don't expect their return next year.

The low airport costs at CLT don't begin to make up for the very low yields these flights attract. Nearly every passenger on these flights is originating (or terminating) somewhere other than Charlotte. Connecting passengers are usually necessary for the success of long-haul flights, but the low O&D of CLT probably makes these flights money-losers even if every seat is sold. PHL, NYC or MIA would provide multiples of the O&D found in Charlotte for these four destinations.

It may be a great airport, but a US Airways executive mentioned recently to the Charlotte paper that CLT is also the lowest unit revenue hub, and that doesn't bode well for the future of European, Asian or S American flights.

Stop the presses! MAD isn't a surprise, and it will probably become year-round. Same thing with additional LHR flights. LHR and MAD are One-world hubs, and they will largely replace traffic to FRA. It's very unlikely that new AA will fly more than once daily to FRA from either PHL or CLT, even in the summer, and I believe that it's likely that PHL will keep a daily flight to FRA while CLT probably loses FRA.

Piedmont767

The duration of the seasonal operating time was cut, you are right, but the
flights do well, in most nights the aircraft on all routes willl be full, granted it may be low-yieldibg traffic, however full aicraft with low-yielding passengers will still make money, the lowest available fares for the next flights to the 4 European destinations are-

BCN- $1,279
BRU- $1,483
MAN- $1,213
LIS- Econony Non-refundable Sold-out, next lowest fare- $2,146

Using Manchester as an example, as it has tye cheapest fare, if you divide $1,213 by 3,864 (miles between CLT and MAN) you will get the Yield: Per Revenue Passenger Mile, which is 31˘ a mile, according to my calculations. I and it seems most people think, that CLT-LIS/BCN/BRU/MAN will at least be tried again next year.

You don't know that these flights are unprofitable, do you? You have not seen any figures, you are just guessing that European flying is unprofitable from Charlotte! There is a reason where international flying from Charlotte has built up over the years from two destinations in 2008 to 10 in 2014, becuase it makes money, an airline wouldn't start a new route unless they thought they could fill it up and make money, which all European flights must do otherwise CLT would still have London and Frankfurt as US Airways destinations. And the small O&D CLT has is high-yiedling and important, a German company for example buying up 8 Business Class Suites to FRA from CLT, taking there employees from the USA office and manufacturing site to the company's head office in Frankfurt.

Can I have a source for your "but a US Airways executive mentioned recently to the Charlotte paper that CLT is also the lowest unit revenue hub" quote? And that does not bode well for Charlotte? Numerous US Airways executives have sais that Charlotte is a great hub, one we will keep forever and like to expand especially international.

There is no need to be sarcastic, with you "Stop the presses!", I was just informing someone else that CLT already has a flight to Madrid.

Charlotte will NEVER loose service to FRA, the flight extremely well BEFORE US Airways joined Star Alliance in 2004. There is also fairly large German presence in Charlotte, that is why US Airways and Lufthansa both decided to and will keep service from FRA/MUC to CLT. Also there is a reason why the second daily CLT-FRA has ALWAYS resumed at least two months before the second daily PHL-FRA- becuase it does better; I have seen figures that I am not allowed to post, however I can say that CLT-FRA does better than PHL-FRA. So acording to your logic, if one daily USA-FRA would be cut- I wouldn't be surprised to Philadelphia to be cut, before Charlotte.

MAH4546

The chances of these flights coming back are close to zero. CLTBRU and CLTLIS are definitely dead. Maybe CLTBCN and CLTMAN could run for peak summer, assuming AA doesn't start MIAMAN.

Piedmont767

You don't really know that CLTBRU and CLTLIS are definately dead, there has not be any sign that they are cutting CLTBRU/LIS yet. Could you please eleborate on that comment. The CLTLIS load factor is good and the average Coach fare is well over $1,000, it could be profitable, I haven't looked at the stats yet though. As for CLTBCN and CLTMAN, they can probably run during the summer.

Speedracer2

I appreciate the details in your post, but unless anyone has the data that the AA bean counters use in their analysis it's all speculation. I speculate that CLT will have less TATL flights in the future purely based on what has happened to smaller metro area airports in the past after airline mergers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...#United_States

Cltfc

Piedmont767, I think you are a flight attendant, I find it curious that you have all of this internal information that you cant divulge. I too am a US based employee and can tell you that every flight from CLT has much worse yields than those from PHL. Philly flights are much more profitable. If you argue load factors are higher yes but not yield- why? Because CLT flights are filled with low yield transfer traffic mostly to Florida. I think its a given that Bru, Lis will not be coming back and I think it may be a stretch for both Man and Bcn. I think you will find that in a couple of years CLT TATL will be down to: Lhr, Mad and Fra annually and possibly CDG and FCO seasonally. I think GRU will stick around until Oct 2015 at which time open skies with Brazil will be in effect and that frequency will be moved to another hub probably Miami. Also, all this dribble here in Charlotte about: Qatar, Jal and Finnair coming to CLt is beyond belief. This merger was about economics and right now there are too many hubs offering the same flights to the same cities in Europe look for significant route rationalization. Therefore, there will be more TATL from fewer cities except for LHR and Mad and I think as do most analysts that CHARLOTTE WILL BE THE BIGGEST LOSER

FWAAA

Low-yielding TATL flights might have been profitable when the pilots and FAs had the lowest wages among the legacies, but it's not at all clear that they'll be profitable now that pilots are at AA's much higher wage scale (as of Dec 9, 2013, when they received about $200 million of retro to Feb 13m 2013). Your FA group finally ratified raises early in 2013 as well.

The US TATL yield this year will not break 15 cents per mile. I'm not concerned with anecdotal fare searches - I'm looking at annual data that US files with the DoT and with the SEC.

In 2013, the US Airways TATL yield was substantially less than the AA TATL yield - Parker detailed that in the January press release containing the 2013 annual financial results:

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...R5cGU9MQ==&t=1

US has had the lowest TATL yields and unit revenue among the majors since at least 1995. It's improved in recent years, but it's still the lowest. PIT did not attract high TATL fares and neither do CLT or PHL compared to NYC, BOS, WAS or MIA.

We don't have numbers on these new seasonal flights yet, but given that they're not key business destinations and are filled with connecting passengers, it's very unlikely that they're highly profitable, especially with the new higher post-merger US payscales.

Maybe new AA will keep a daily CLT-FRA flight, but if LH were to begin flying FRA-CLT, then it's a certainty that the German business executives (the ones based in Germany who fly all over the world on LH) would flock to that flight and abandon new AA in a minute. At that point, new AA would only have the USA-based subordinate employees of those German companies, and that might not be enough traffic to keep a daily FRA flight. LH still flies MUC-CLT, right?

What little O&D exists in CLT is, of course, high-yielding, like most other fortress hubs (ATL, EWR, DFW, MSP, etc). Problem with CLT is that it has the smallest O&D of any major hub. That's not a good omen for continued expansion.

That doesn't mean that CLT will be de-hubbed or closed or shut down. It simply means that CLT may not keep the same level of service it has featured in the past and that it may not expand. At this point, nobody knows.

It was in an article several weeks ago in your local Charlotte paper. I don't have time to look for it right now.

Maybe you're right, but it really depends on whether the CLT-FRA traffic consists of German-based executives or North Carolina-based Americans. The latter might be swayed to fly new AA, but the former will probably fly LH if that's a possibility.

Charlotte is a great city, but it's vastly over-served for its size. So are most other big hubs, but CLT stands out with the highest connecting percentage in the country at about 80%. At the very low wages paid prior to 2013, US showed some profits in certain years. With the new much higher wages and higher O&D hubs in the system (MIA, DFW, JFK), CLT's never-ending growth may be slowing down. That's why Charlotte put the new International terminal on hold and is building some new domestic gates instead.

iztok

Another thing to consider, this is just short of a year out, flights might not be loaded yet

Cltfc

Can I have a source for your "but a US Airways executive mentioned recently to the Charlotte paper that CLT is also the lowest unit revenue hub" quote? And that does not bode well for Charlotte? Numerous US Airways executives have sais that Charlotte is a great hub, one we will keep forever and like to expand especially international.



Here is your source it was in the Charlotte Observer on June 2nd see below

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...l-growth.html#