Three violinists denied boarding a US flight - wouldn't check violins
May 27, 2014, 2:46 pm
#31
Join Date: Mar 2005
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I think cellists often (usually?) get airline cases for their instruments instead of buying a separate seat for them.
http://www.davidgage.com/store/index.php?cPath=23
http://www.davidgage.com/store/index.php?cPath=23
May 27, 2014, 2:49 pm
#32
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,514
"Total liability for provable direct or consequential damages resulting from the loss, delay, or damage to baggage in US Airways’ custody is limited as follows:
1 . 2 .
For travel wholly between U .S . points, to $3400 per customer .
For international travel (including the domestic portions of international flights) to which the Montreal Convention applies, US Airways’ liability for loss, delays, or damage to baggage is limited to 1,131 Spe- cial Drawing Rights (approximately $1,807) per passenger for checked and unchecked baggage . (See Section 11 .4 . for details .)
29
01/16/14
Contract of Carriage
Unless protection is purchased (excess valuation), and unless it is international travel to which the Montreal Convention applies, US Airways assumes no liability for valuable/commercial items including but not limited to: money, negotiable papers, securities, irreplaceable business documents, books, manuscripts, publications, photographic or electronic equipment, musical instruments, jewelry, silverware, precious metals, furs, antiques, artifacts, paintings and other works of art, lifesaving medication, and samples ."
Since US assumes no liability for expensive stuff, and and since US sell no insurance for domestic flights, it follows that the pax is not supposed to check expensive stuff. I will grant you that unethical airline employees routinely check expensive items, as well as lithium batteries and other dangerous cargo, but that doesn't mean that is how it is supposed to happen.
IDB.
1 . 2 .
For travel wholly between U .S . points, to $3400 per customer .
For international travel (including the domestic portions of international flights) to which the Montreal Convention applies, US Airways’ liability for loss, delays, or damage to baggage is limited to 1,131 Spe- cial Drawing Rights (approximately $1,807) per passenger for checked and unchecked baggage . (See Section 11 .4 . for details .)
29
01/16/14
Contract of Carriage
Unless protection is purchased (excess valuation), and unless it is international travel to which the Montreal Convention applies, US Airways assumes no liability for valuable/commercial items including but not limited to: money, negotiable papers, securities, irreplaceable business documents, books, manuscripts, publications, photographic or electronic equipment, musical instruments, jewelry, silverware, precious metals, furs, antiques, artifacts, paintings and other works of art, lifesaving medication, and samples ."
Since US assumes no liability for expensive stuff, and and since US sell no insurance for domestic flights, it follows that the pax is not supposed to check expensive stuff. I will grant you that unethical airline employees routinely check expensive items, as well as lithium batteries and other dangerous cargo, but that doesn't mean that is how it is supposed to happen.
IDB.
You can pack a Gold bar in your luggage. The airline will take it. If its lost/stolen/damaged etc. through the fault of the airline, you will not be reimbursed its value, you will be reimbursed to the maximum the convention allows.
It is up to you to insure the real value. That goes for everyone flying.
Those who travel with valuable items will either cover it via their home insurance, or through a specific insurance.
If I were a professional musician with an expensive instrument, and I had to travel (like many many musicians do, I would have the appropriate cases and insurance.
May 27, 2014, 2:49 pm
#33
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: DCA
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I just can't wrap my brain around the idea that because the airline won't insure one's expensive cargo that it's an involuntary denied boarding when the cargo's owner doesn't pony up his own insurance. You're asking the airline to take on extra risk that the fare did not cover. The musicians here are the least cost avoiders, not the airline.
May 27, 2014, 2:50 pm
#34
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In fact I had largely presumed this was the case and I have a third party insurance policy.
May 27, 2014, 2:55 pm
#35
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,514
I carry a laptop bag that fits in the overhead bins. Even the RJs & Dash-8s.
That being said, I travel often for Scubadiving. I am well aware that the equipment I travel with is worth more than the maximum an airline covers you for, so I have other insurance to cover the difference.
May 27, 2014, 3:18 pm
#36
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 21
Heck, I'd gladly gate-check my bag in exchange for a smile and a polite request from the musician. I'm sure plenty of other passengers would gladly do so as well. That is a relatively low level of inconvenience for me to give a fellow traveler some peace of mind.
May 27, 2014, 3:32 pm
#37
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Location: San Francisco, CA
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May 27, 2014, 4:00 pm
#38
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That the airline is limited in its liability does not mean that there is an entitlement to carry on any expensive item. They could have purchased an additional seal for the item if the item cannot be safely stowed on that type of aeroplane or ensured to book on a flight which does have appropriate space
There is also no IDB compensation due since they were not denied boarding to the flight being oversold
There is also no IDB compensation due since they were not denied boarding to the flight being oversold
You would check your laptop?
If I were an insurance company, and asked to insure an item where the no one has any civil or criminal responsibility, I would laugh. It is kind of like getting insurance for unoccupied house. Good luck with that.
And what do you do when you are in the bulkhead, and the overheads are full?
You travel with no expensive carry ons like a laptop? What's your plan when you end up in the bulkhead?
Useless when the in bound flight is late and one is connecting.
I once had an RJ flight from DEN to COS on United Express. My connecting flight arrived late. My originally assigned seat was taken and I had the bulkhead. There was no overhead space. I had a laptop. Flying on that plane wasn't an option. Fortunately, the pax in row 2, with no carry on under his seat, could see that the flight wasn't going to leave on time while United tried to solve this problem, so he swapped.
Then there is the problem when one is upgraded to row 1 of the plane, a real problem on a CR7.
Useless when the in bound flight is late and one is connecting.
I once had an RJ flight from DEN to COS on United Express. My connecting flight arrived late. My originally assigned seat was taken and I had the bulkhead. There was no overhead space. I had a laptop. Flying on that plane wasn't an option. Fortunately, the pax in row 2, with no carry on under his seat, could see that the flight wasn't going to leave on time while United tried to solve this problem, so he swapped.
Then there is the problem when one is upgraded to row 1 of the plane, a real problem on a CR7.
Last edited by mre5765; May 27, 2014 at 6:05 pm
May 27, 2014, 4:10 pm
#39
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,583
The specific rules for musical instruments apply to musical instruments and unless it can be safely stowed it is not permitted as cabin baggage
Even if you could twist that into their being denied boarding, so what? There is no compensation due for IDB unless it is due to the flight being oversold
Last edited by Dave Noble; May 27, 2014 at 4:38 pm
May 27, 2014, 4:23 pm
#40
Formerly known as tireman77
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,514
They had an item that fit the sizer. It was too expensive to check. IDB.
You would check your laptop?
Where do you buy this insurance?
If I were an insurance company, and asked to insure an item where the no one has any civil or criminal responsibility, I would laugh. It is kind of like getting insurance for unoccupied house. Good luck with that.
I didn't ask about your inexpensive suitcase and its contents. I asked about expensive stuff. Extraneous info snipped.
And what do you do when you are in the bulkhead, and the overheads are full?
That being said, I travel often for Scubadiving. I am well aware that the equipment I travel with is worth more than the maximum an airline covers you for, so I have other insurance to cover the difference.
You would check your laptop?
Where do you buy this insurance?
If I were an insurance company, and asked to insure an item where the no one has any civil or criminal responsibility, I would laugh. It is kind of like getting insurance for unoccupied house. Good luck with that.
I didn't ask about your inexpensive suitcase and its contents. I asked about expensive stuff. Extraneous info snipped.
And what do you do when you are in the bulkhead, and the overheads are full?
That being said, I travel often for Scubadiving. I am well aware that the equipment I travel with is worth more than the maximum an airline covers you for, so I have other insurance to cover the difference.
You can insure anything, but always at a price. I am not a professional musician but if I was, and I had my instrument (probably worth in the $5,000-$25,000 range) I would find the appropriate plan.
For a Joe Nobody like me, as a Scuba Diver, the DAN insurance covers up to $5000. Most travel credit cards offer good protection, but the flight needs to be paid for with the card, and often it doesn't cover if you booked on points. Your travel medical insurance provider (like Blue Cross) also offers the same type of insurance, but sometimes as an add on.
I am sure there are multiple threads about this, so I will defer to them.
As for when overhead bins are full? I have status on most flights and pre-board. In the rare cases where it is full, the announcement states if you have more than 1 carry one one must go under the seat in front of you. If you are in the bulkhead, and there is no more room in the bins, the FAs find a place for it. Especially when you expressly state, out loud, for everyone to hear that you checked a bag not to clog the overhead bins... looking around with an evil eye to all the people who brought all their worldly belongings on board with them. Did I mention I hate carry-on suitcases?
May 27, 2014, 4:42 pm
#41
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YVR
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I might not travel with a one million violin but I do have something unusual and fragile with me -- a 23" LCD monitor -- and it'd hamper me seriously if it wouldnt arrive on the other end. I now have the backpack to carry it on if I want to or if I want to check it in, I have the hard shell suitcase for it too and the (for what it is, damned expensive) LCD carrying shield to keep the glass intact. Some other time when I had even more fragile and expensive stuff to check in, I used a Pelican case (closed with quarter inch steel hasps). Break that if you can.
All told, if you travel with something unusual -- use your brains here -- then you better be very familiar with the policies of the airline you travel with. I totally agree with the "buy a second seat or pack it well and insure it" train of thought.
All told, if you travel with something unusual -- use your brains here -- then you better be very familiar with the policies of the airline you travel with. I totally agree with the "buy a second seat or pack it well and insure it" train of thought.
Last edited by chx1975; May 27, 2014 at 4:48 pm
May 27, 2014, 4:42 pm
#42
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ORD
Posts: 986
I'll just leave this here.
FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012
SEC. 403. MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.
Sec. 41724. Musical instruments. In general …
1. SMALL INSTRUMENTS AS CARRY-ON BAGGAGE — An air carrier providing air transportation shall permit a passenger to carry a violin, guitar, or other musical instrument in the aircraft cabin, without charging the passenger a fee in addition to any standard fee that carrier may require for comparable carry-on baggage, if …
(A) the instrument can be stowed safely in a suitable baggage compartment in the aircraft cabin or under a passenger seat, in accordance with the requirements for carriage of carry-on baggage or cargo established by the administrator; and
(B) there is space for such stowage at the time the passenger boards the aircraft.
FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012
SEC. 403. MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.
Sec. 41724. Musical instruments. In general …
1. SMALL INSTRUMENTS AS CARRY-ON BAGGAGE — An air carrier providing air transportation shall permit a passenger to carry a violin, guitar, or other musical instrument in the aircraft cabin, without charging the passenger a fee in addition to any standard fee that carrier may require for comparable carry-on baggage, if …
(A) the instrument can be stowed safely in a suitable baggage compartment in the aircraft cabin or under a passenger seat, in accordance with the requirements for carriage of carry-on baggage or cargo established by the administrator; and
(B) there is space for such stowage at the time the passenger boards the aircraft.
May 27, 2014, 4:51 pm
#43
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That is no different to US's policy http://reservations.usairways.com/en...cialitems.html. If there is not room to stow it safely, it is not permitted as cabin baggage
May 27, 2014, 5:06 pm
#44
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"This one time at band camp I stuck my violin in my..."
May 27, 2014, 6:12 pm
#45
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Great, provide the link to the insurer.
I went to the DAN website, and saw nothing of the kind. Please provide a link.
Great, provide some links. BTW, here is an example of "good" protection from the credit card company:
"We will pay a benefit for the Replacement Cost of checked Baggage up to a maximum of $2,000 for each Covered Person on a Covered Trip. (Bicycles are covered when checked as Baggage with a Common Carrier Conveyance.)
"
That's going to cover a violin or laptop? $2000?
Yeah you checked your bag for free; that will go over well with the kettles on the plane.
And it didn't work for the musicians. Eventually you will run into an FA and pax who won't accommodate someone like you who failed to book an extra seat for his laptop. So what will you do? Will you check you laptop? Or will you refuse to board?
What if you have loose lithium batteries? Are you going to gate check those in violation of federal law?
Most travel credit cards offer good protection, but the flight needs to be paid for with the card, and often it doesn't cover if you booked on points. Your travel medical insurance provider (like Blue Cross) also offers the same type of insurance, but sometimes as an add on.
I am sure there are multiple threads about this, so I will defer to them.
I am sure there are multiple threads about this, so I will defer to them.
"We will pay a benefit for the Replacement Cost of checked Baggage up to a maximum of $2,000 for each Covered Person on a Covered Trip. (Bicycles are covered when checked as Baggage with a Common Carrier Conveyance.)
"
That's going to cover a violin or laptop? $2000?
As for when overhead bins are full? I have status on most flights and pre-board. In the rare cases where it is full, the announcement states if you have more than 1 carry one one must go under the seat in front of you. If you are in the bulkhead, and there is no more room in the bins, the FAs find a place for it. Especially when you expressly state, out loud, for everyone to hear that you checked a bag not to clog the overhead bins... looking around with an evil eye to all the people who brought all their worldly belongings on board with them. Did I mention I hate carry-on suitcases?
And it didn't work for the musicians. Eventually you will run into an FA and pax who won't accommodate someone like you who failed to book an extra seat for his laptop. So what will you do? Will you check you laptop? Or will you refuse to board?
What if you have loose lithium batteries? Are you going to gate check those in violation of federal law?
Last edited by mre5765; May 27, 2014 at 6:23 pm