The flight will land at DCA, no BWI, no DCA, no BWI, no DCA, no BWI, no....
Mar 28, 2007, 9:54 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: DCA
Posts: 1,413
The flight will land at DCA, no BWI, no DCA, no BWI, no DCA, no BWI, no....
Well, I'm usually pretty resigned when it comes to operational snafus at US, but my experience tonight I think is worth relaying.
So I'm waiting for someone who's on US 1892 CLT to DCA, scheduled to leave CLT at 7:50PM, and delayed in increments of first 1hr, then 30 mins, due to "air-traffic congestion". Final posted departure time, 10:20PM, since apparently a new crew was needed, too.
Meanwhile the 9:40PM CLT to DCA leaves on-time no problem. The passengers in CLT are told that due to the late departure, the flight would not be allowed into DCA, and would have to go BWI instead. (Anyone know what time the curfew at DCA starts?).
Flight finally departed at 10:44, to BWI I thought. Check the website, and it says the plane going to DCA. Look at DCA's website - it says the flight is going to land at DCA. Start calling US: agent 1 says it's DCA, for sure. OK, so I guess it's going to DCA after all, phew! Call back just to make sure: 2nd agent at US says the flight is going to BWI. Call back again: agent 3 says, no DCA. Agent 4 "confirms" BWI. By now I'm just amused/resigned, and decide to play the "let's see how many votes I can get for each"-game. 5th agent votes for DCA. Sixth agent casts her vote for BWI. Seventh agent, who was pretty competent and actually called PHX operations for me, said BWI (btw, he was an East agent, I asked).
The plane is supposed to have landed already - the website still says en-route to DCA.... the person I'm waiting for is not carrying their cell-phone....
Don't you just love US' operations?
So I'm waiting for someone who's on US 1892 CLT to DCA, scheduled to leave CLT at 7:50PM, and delayed in increments of first 1hr, then 30 mins, due to "air-traffic congestion". Final posted departure time, 10:20PM, since apparently a new crew was needed, too.
Meanwhile the 9:40PM CLT to DCA leaves on-time no problem. The passengers in CLT are told that due to the late departure, the flight would not be allowed into DCA, and would have to go BWI instead. (Anyone know what time the curfew at DCA starts?).
Flight finally departed at 10:44, to BWI I thought. Check the website, and it says the plane going to DCA. Look at DCA's website - it says the flight is going to land at DCA. Start calling US: agent 1 says it's DCA, for sure. OK, so I guess it's going to DCA after all, phew! Call back just to make sure: 2nd agent at US says the flight is going to BWI. Call back again: agent 3 says, no DCA. Agent 4 "confirms" BWI. By now I'm just amused/resigned, and decide to play the "let's see how many votes I can get for each"-game. 5th agent votes for DCA. Sixth agent casts her vote for BWI. Seventh agent, who was pretty competent and actually called PHX operations for me, said BWI (btw, he was an East agent, I asked).
The plane is supposed to have landed already - the website still says en-route to DCA.... the person I'm waiting for is not carrying their cell-phone....
Don't you just love US' operations?
Mar 28, 2007, 9:59 pm
#2
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 3,511
Totally unexcusable that they couldn't give you a straight answer. From the looks of the flight's entry on FlightAware.com, it filed for BWI from the beginning and that's where it ended up. Shouldn't have been so hard to tell you that...
Mar 28, 2007, 10:07 pm
#3
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: DCA
Posts: 1,413
Yeah, I kinda knew from the beginning it was going to BWI...The most recent agent told me that the flight was a CLT-BWI with a stop in DCA. They landed in DCA and then left again, since they just don't "skip stops"! She was very curteous, though...
Another interesting thing is that when I call US through VOIP I get one type of greeting and an estimated waiting time of >20 mins, whereas when I call from my cell (same 800 number), I get a different type of greeting and an immediate answer...
Mar 28, 2007, 10:19 pm
#4
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: BOS
Programs: AA EXP, SPG Gold, HHonors Diamond, Avis President's Club
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Sounds like the Seinfeld episode with George and Kramer running back and forth between JFK and LGA to meet Jerry's flight.
Wait, this was real life and not a comedy? Oops!
Wait, this was real life and not a comedy? Oops!
Mar 28, 2007, 10:33 pm
#5
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
The curfew is from 10:00 PM till 7:00 AM, so no landings after 9:59 PM with a loophole. If the flight is scheduled to arrive before 10:00 PM, the flight can land as late as 10:30 PM as long as approach clearance is received before 10:00 PM.
Jim
Jim
Mar 28, 2007, 11:04 pm
#6
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Washington, DC (DCA)
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Posts: 3,463
Is that just on arrivials, because I have had numerous flights out of DCA at 6:00am
Mar 29, 2007, 12:22 am
#7
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I know from 0600-0700 the types of planes used are restricted. For example, Delta's 0600 or 0630 shuttle to LGA is on an Embraer 170 instead of the regular MD-88, since the Mad Dogs are too loud for this time period, but the Embraers meet the standards.
Additionally, there are 5 daily US flights that land at 2200 or later today: an E170 at 2200, a HP 757 at 2201, 319s at 2215 and 2254 and an E170 at 2342. UA has a 319 land at 2339, AC an E175 at 2215. Tonight alone, 3 flights from ORD landed at DCA (2 UA and an AA) between 0145 and 0203 (2x 319 and an M80), not to mention several other post-2300 arrivals.
Edit:
from http://www.caan.org/factsfigs.html - a bit dated, but looks accurate nonetheless.
Additionally, there are 5 daily US flights that land at 2200 or later today: an E170 at 2200, a HP 757 at 2201, 319s at 2215 and 2254 and an E170 at 2342. UA has a 319 land at 2339, AC an E175 at 2215. Tonight alone, 3 flights from ORD landed at DCA (2 UA and an AA) between 0145 and 0203 (2x 319 and an M80), not to mention several other post-2300 arrivals.
Edit:
There is no nighttime curfew at National Airport. There are, however, nighttime noise limits for arrivals and departures, and these remain in effect from 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. There is a 30 minute grace period for late arrivals. The noise limits are: for takeoff, 72 dBA. for landings, 85 dBA. The following aIrcraft meet these limits. MD-90, some verisons of the A319, 320, and Boeing 757, and the regional jets (the small 50 to 70 seat aircraft). The MD-80 may land but not take off. It should be noted that as more airlines convert from Stage 2 aircraft to the above type of aircraft, residents may see more flights leaving in the 5 to 7 a.m. time period. There are currently about 50 flights (as of May '02) leaving during this period, all using the approved aircraft.
As part of the National Airport noise abatement procedures, aircraft that violate the 10 pm to 7 am noise restrictions, like taking off before 7 am with an unapproved aircraft, may be fined up to $5000. There are about 5 - 10 violations per year, and after a review of the circumstances, fines may be collected from those airlines.
As part of the National Airport noise abatement procedures, aircraft that violate the 10 pm to 7 am noise restrictions, like taking off before 7 am with an unapproved aircraft, may be fined up to $5000. There are about 5 - 10 violations per year, and after a review of the circumstances, fines may be collected from those airlines.
Mar 29, 2007, 3:41 am
#8
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
"From 2200 to 0700 hours local time, operations of aircraft type and model which exceed the following noise levels violate metropolitan Washington Airport Authority Regulations (MWAR) 3.11: Departures — 72dBA as generated on takeoff."
"Arrivals — 85dBA as generated on approach, except that aircraft scheduled to arrive before 2200 will be permitted to land if they have received an approach clearance before 2230." [the bold corrects what I said early about the time by which approach clearance must be received]
As of when I retired, US East had the following "exceptions" for take-off during the curfew period:
A319/320, B757, & E170 - anytime
B737-300 - not over 119,200# take-off weight
B737-400 - not over 126,600# take-off weight
A321 - not over 178,700# take-off weight
Likewise, when I retired there were no East "exceptions" for landing during the curfew period (other than that for late flights scheduled to arrive before 10:00 PM as already mentioned). Compliance with the noise limits is on the honor system - ATC will grant T/O or landing clearance to any aircraft at any time - but some fairly hefty fines for exceeding the noise limits tend to insure compliance. So any airline can schedule flights at any time as long as they are pretty confident that those flights won't exceed the noise limit and result in a fine.
Jim
Mar 29, 2007, 7:55 am
#9
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: PHL
Programs: Former long-time US GP; now AA dirt
Posts: 4,904
"The noise limits are: for takeoff, 72 dBA. for landings, 85 dBA. "
Can soemone explain why the noise limit for landings is significantly higher than takeoffs?
Can soemone explain why the noise limit for landings is significantly higher than takeoffs?
Mar 29, 2007, 7:59 am
#10
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Mar 29, 2007, 8:04 am
#11
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: usually DCA
Posts: 1,837
I know from 0600-0700 the types of planes used are restricted. For example, Delta's 0600 or 0630 shuttle to LGA is on an Embraer 170 instead of the regular MD-88, since the Mad Dogs are too loud for this time period, but the Embraers meet the standards.
Additionally, there are 5 daily US flights that land at 2200 or later today: an E170 at 2200, a HP 757 at 2201, 319s at 2215 and 2254 and an E170 at 2342. UA has a 319 land at 2339, AC an E175 at 2215. Tonight alone, 3 flights from ORD landed at DCA (2 UA and an AA) between 0145 and 0203 (2x 319 and an M80), not to mention several other post-2300 arrivals.
Edit: from http://www.caan.org/factsfigs.html - a bit dated, but looks accurate nonetheless.
Additionally, there are 5 daily US flights that land at 2200 or later today: an E170 at 2200, a HP 757 at 2201, 319s at 2215 and 2254 and an E170 at 2342. UA has a 319 land at 2339, AC an E175 at 2215. Tonight alone, 3 flights from ORD landed at DCA (2 UA and an AA) between 0145 and 0203 (2x 319 and an M80), not to mention several other post-2300 arrivals.
Edit: from http://www.caan.org/factsfigs.html - a bit dated, but looks accurate nonetheless.
Mar 29, 2007, 2:00 pm
#12
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: SFO/OAK ex DCA ex ALB
Posts: 625
The page mersk862 linked to discussed that under "aircraft design." It sounds like the difference is primarily due to the fact that the plane passes over the FAA's microphones at a higher altitude on takeoff than on landing. It's not that the aircraft is that much louder during landings (although the article does note that having flaps and gear down generates a bit more noise), it's just that the baseline measurements are lower for takeoffs because the plane is farther off the ground.
Mar 29, 2007, 8:26 pm
#13
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Washington, DC
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This is very odd. I've been on many Airbii on many airlines over the years, and we've never had a problem landing after 10 p.m., except right after 9/11 where there was a hard curfew. UA even has a *scheduled* arrival of 11:39 p.m. from ORD (departs ORD at 9 p.m. CT, 10 p.m. ET).
Mar 29, 2007, 9:15 pm
#14
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This is very odd. I've been on many Airbii on many airlines over the years, and we've never had a problem landing after 10 p.m., except right after 9/11 where there was a hard curfew. UA even has a *scheduled* arrival of 11:39 p.m. from ORD (departs ORD at 9 p.m. CT, 10 p.m. ET).
Mar 30, 2007, 3:51 pm
#15
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,035
The page mersk862 linked to discussed that under "aircraft design." It sounds like the difference is primarily due to the fact that the plane passes over the FAA's microphones at a higher altitude on takeoff than on landing. It's not that the aircraft is that much louder during landings (although the article does note that having flaps and gear down generates a bit more noise), it's just that the baseline measurements are lower for takeoffs because the plane is farther off the ground.
As for planes coming in late, AA has a DFW-DCA flight that is regularly scheduled to arrive at 12:10am. I flew it last year coming back from LAS. The flight is on a 738 which being a next-gen Boeing is quiet enough to come in that late.