Why no US transcons from BOS to LAX and SFO?
#16
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: MKE
Programs: AA Exec Platinum, SPG Platinum / Ambassador / Lifetime Gold, Avis FIRST
Posts: 3,293
Those were the days when I could fly SFO-NYC for ridiculously low fares, with even sub $200 fares being common. I remember for a while actually, B6 actually lowered OAK-JFK to $79 each way and HP, UA matched. Having such a huge amount of transcon competition destroyed those routes.
#17
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PHL/EWR
Programs: UA, AA
Posts: 1,821
Although I posted 30 minutes after grahampros posted the above, this really is the right answer. It's generally more expensive to fly BOS-LGA than it is to fly BOS/JFK-LAX, at least in Y. All of the money is made in the sale of premium fares, and it would be extremely difficult for US to win over those customers, even if it did upgrade its premium product. There is tremendous brand loyalty among those passengers.
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
I'm guessing that LCC doesn't fly BOS/JFK transcons anymore for kinda the same reasons that UA and AA don't try to establish large hubs at PHX and LAS. Sometimes you just gotta know your limitations and focus on what you do best. It's about making profits, not about connecting dots on some big wall map.
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
And yes, my bias does cloud my vision -- but the bias is based on past experience.
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
Although I posted 30 minutes after grahampros posted the above, this really is the right answer. It's generally more expensive to fly BOS-LGA than it is to fly BOS/JFK-LAX, at least in Y. All of the money is made in the sale of premium fares, and it would be extremely difficult for US to win over those customers, even if it did upgrade its premium product. There is tremendous brand loyalty among those passengers.
If US (or Delta) offered nonstop transcons from BOS, that would be a lovely thing.
As for United "kicking US out of the Star Alliance," it would never happen. The whole Star Alliance exists because of the theory of "coopetition" -- that cooperation and competition simultaneously happen. Besides, tossing US out of Star would screw LH (the real king of the alliance) and shut Star flyers out of the East Coast almost entirely. Given United's near-evacuation of JFK and pullbacks from Boston, it would leave the entire eastern US open to AA/OneWorld and Skyteam at Star's expense.
Besides, UAL shouldn't complain about US flying from its focus city of Boston to the UAL hubs in SFO and LAX, when UAL flies from those cities to the US hub in Philadelphia (and erodes US's position as a result).
#21
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
Two things wrong....
1 - you imply that US could compete transcon out of BOS without a competitive F/C product (or whatever a "big premium product" is) but then say that UA is eroding US' transcon business out of PHL. It can't be both.
2 - US leaving the Star Alliance would not "shut Star flyers out of the East Coast almost entirely." UA's IAD hub provides quite a bit of East Coast service, with much better Star Alliance connectivity than either PHL or CLT's single LH flight per day.
Jim
1 - you imply that US could compete transcon out of BOS without a competitive F/C product (or whatever a "big premium product" is) but then say that UA is eroding US' transcon business out of PHL. It can't be both.
2 - US leaving the Star Alliance would not "shut Star flyers out of the East Coast almost entirely." UA's IAD hub provides quite a bit of East Coast service, with much better Star Alliance connectivity than either PHL or CLT's single LH flight per day.
Jim
#22
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
Most eastern business travelers aren't looking for long-haul flights to Europe (although US does offer quite a few of those from Philly). A large number of eastern biz travelers are FrequentHoppers (get it?) from Boston to NYC to Baltimore to Atlanta to Miami to Cincinatti to Philly.
UAL's presence on the east coast is, well, pathetic to put it mildly. The IAD hub is all well and good, but UAL is a no-go choice for a large number of east coasters in Boston, Philadelphia, New York, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Charlotte, Miami, Jacksonville and other eastern cities who want quick nonstop or 1-connection trips between those destinations.
In addition, US and Delta own smaller airports UAL doesn't service in fairly major smaller business markets in New England, Pennsylvania, upstate New York, and the southeast.
Both Delta and US have excellent short-hop networks between the major cities. United, in comparison, cannot even get you from Boston to New York. Who would choose a connection in IAD over the US or DL shuttles?
On top of that, if a person in the east is a frequent hopper and also wants long-haul, a Star Alliance without US isn't viable either. After all, if I can do short hops on Delta and Continental for my eastern seaboard travel -- and fly long-haul on NWA, DL and CO around the world -- why bother with United?
US brings Star extensive coverage of eastern cities that UAL from IAD cannot touch. Without US, Star wouldn't be interesting to folks in a large number of cities -- and SkyTeam would increase in interest significantly.
#24
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: High Point, NC
Programs: None
Posts: 9,171
No, you just said that UA was eroding US' traffic from PHL to UA's west coast hubs - you didn't imply it.
And then go on to justify that by talking about business travelers flying domesticly - no effect on Star there - or those flying between the half dozen domestic cities where US has the larger presence - no effect on Star there - or or those that don't use Star now - no effect on Star there - or those in small markets that UA doesn't serve - finally a somewhat small effect on Star. Quite different than your statement that losing US would "shut the Star Alliance out of the East coast almost entirely."
Jim
Jim
#25
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
And then go on to justify that by talking about business travelers flying domesticly
no effect on Star there - or those flying between the half dozen domestic cities where US has the larger presence - no effect on Star there
Actually, it does have an effect, since if Star becomes competitively disadvantaged, they lose hope of getting those additional non-Star folks.
That's even true for the recent China service to and from IAD. Without US's support (and feed out of DCA), and US DM members seeking to earn EQMs towards status on UAL flights, UAL would have a lot harder time selling seats.
It would indeed shut Star out of most of the east coast's airports entirely (since UAL doesn't serve them), and reduce its presence at most major east coast airports to a shadow of its present stature.
#26
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
I flew in one a couple of months ago, in fact.
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
By the by, a quick sweep over to the MD-80 information section of airliners.net shows that the MD-80 has a range of 2920 nautical miles fully loaded, and WebFlyer indicates that the distance between BOS and SFO is about 2700 nautical miles. If it was one of the MD-87s, it has a range of almost 3,000 NMs.
Both could make the eastbound journey without any weight restriction at all and without the aid of tailwinds -- and this plane was far from full.
Both could make the eastbound journey without any weight restriction at all and without the aid of tailwinds -- and this plane was far from full.
#30
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: NYC
Programs: AA Platinum; US Gold; DL Silver
Posts: 941
Finally, another thread from the AA boards discussing AA's other MD-80 transcons -- the ones that are supposedly impossible:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372737
I guess I might be anti-AA, but I'm not a liar, and look forward to your apology for questioning my honesty. :P
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=372737
I guess I might be anti-AA, but I'm not a liar, and look forward to your apology for questioning my honesty. :P