PHL-ISP crew kick off blind man w/service dog; flight cancelled
Nov 16, 2013, 1:06 pm
#76
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Nov 16, 2013, 1:17 pm
#77
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Now you're being silly. The FA's and any volunteer with medical training obviously would attempt to administer treatment. If for no other reason than the Captain being empowered to break any and every FAR if he/she deems it necessary.
However, someone having a heart attach or choking to death is a little different from a dog lying in the aisle. Treatment of a person having a serious medical problem is obviously a primary consideration for that person's survival. Having a dog lying in the aisle could result in death for passengers in an emergency situation.
Jim
However, someone having a heart attach or choking to death is a little different from a dog lying in the aisle. Treatment of a person having a serious medical problem is obviously a primary consideration for that person's survival. Having a dog lying in the aisle could result in death for passengers in an emergency situation.
Jim
Nov 16, 2013, 2:12 pm
#78
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Multiple people have said the dog was never in the aisle.
The really fishy part is that if the passenger was disruptive, then how come other passengers 10 rows up said they heard no disturbance? Knew nothing was happening until he got marched off? I'm sure most of us have been on planes with disruptive passengers, and everyone on the plane knows something is happening.
Also, where was the CRO in PHL? isn't this exactly why these employees exist?
The really fishy part is that if the passenger was disruptive, then how come other passengers 10 rows up said they heard no disturbance? Knew nothing was happening until he got marched off? I'm sure most of us have been on planes with disruptive passengers, and everyone on the plane knows something is happening.
Also, where was the CRO in PHL? isn't this exactly why these employees exist?
Nov 16, 2013, 3:50 pm
#80
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Certainly a Captain can establish conditions that result in a flight being canceled, but generally at outstations and not a hub. Anything that makes a plane un-airworthy when that's the only USX plane there can end up with a cancellation. But as I said, in PHL I can't image there not being another Dash 8 there or inbound that could be substituted and another flight cancelled. That is the "big picture" that dispatch has that the Capt of a particular flight doesn't have and why dispatch and not the captain actually cancels flights.
Jim
Jim
Must of been awhile since you retired:
At the airlines, there are two parties who are responsible for a flight. The first is the captain (“pilot in command”), and the other is the dispatcher. At the airlines a dispatcher is equally responsible for the flight, as it is the dispatcher who actually puts together the flight plan, plans the route, and computes the fuel required.
However, the final authority is clearly left to the captain. The federal aviation regulations make that abundantly clear, and every airline does as well.
And yes, the FO can make that call, and he can do so by simply walking off the airplane. As long as it is a well-defined and safety-related reason, he should have nothing to worry about.
However, the final authority is clearly left to the captain. The federal aviation regulations make that abundantly clear, and every airline does as well.
And yes, the FO can make that call, and he can do so by simply walking off the airplane. As long as it is a well-defined and safety-related reason, he should have nothing to worry about.
Nov 16, 2013, 4:09 pm
#81
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Wow, that's a really ridiculous and misleading quote you provided, BeatCal.
First of all, you did not provide attribution for your quote. Second, you took tiny bits of a much longer blog entry in order to "support" your point. And those bits you provided to us were taken completely out of context.
Here is the entire blog entry.
First of all, you did not provide attribution for your quote. Second, you took tiny bits of a much longer blog entry in order to "support" your point. And those bits you provided to us were taken completely out of context.
Here is the entire blog entry.
Last edited by tommyleo; Nov 16, 2013 at 4:19 pm
Nov 16, 2013, 9:45 pm
#82
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"A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" or in this day "The ability to do a google search doesn't an expert make." The regs have said the same for a long time - the captain is the final authority with respect to the operation of an airplane, up to and including disregarding the regulations. Even the dispatcher can't force a Captain to take what the Captain considers an unsafe airplane or action. However, the Captain doesn't have the "big picture" that the dispatcher has. Can we pull a spare plane from the hanger in a timely fashion, can we use another flight's airplane for this flight instead, the captain is wrong about the airplane being airworthy so can we find a replacement Captain, etc, etc. Not only that but the dispatcher is normally within normal speaking distance of maintenance control and crew scheduling and can get their input on the spot if necessary. Hence the ultimate authority for canceling a flight rests on the dispatcher.
True story: I got an airplane that had had a bird ingested into the #2 engine on short final. Three fan blades were curled back at the tip. Maintenance was looking at the damage when I arrived at the airplane and within a few minutes one said "this airplane isn't going anywhere." I went back inside and told the agent and called our dispatcher. Shortly thereafter the mechanics were working on the engine - maintenance control had given them an approved relatively quick fix - grind off the deformed part of the fan blades, which they were doing. 30 minutes later we boarded up and left. The mechanics thought the plane was grounded, to which I agreed. None of was right - the "big picture" in this case involved a maintenance controller who was more versed in the planes mechanical bits than we were.
Jim
True story: I got an airplane that had had a bird ingested into the #2 engine on short final. Three fan blades were curled back at the tip. Maintenance was looking at the damage when I arrived at the airplane and within a few minutes one said "this airplane isn't going anywhere." I went back inside and told the agent and called our dispatcher. Shortly thereafter the mechanics were working on the engine - maintenance control had given them an approved relatively quick fix - grind off the deformed part of the fan blades, which they were doing. 30 minutes later we boarded up and left. The mechanics thought the plane was grounded, to which I agreed. None of was right - the "big picture" in this case involved a maintenance controller who was more versed in the planes mechanical bits than we were.
Jim
Last edited by BoeingBoy; Nov 16, 2013 at 9:58 pm
Nov 17, 2013, 12:37 am
#83
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Nov 17, 2013, 9:37 am
#84
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Nov 17, 2013, 9:39 am
#85
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Nov 17, 2013, 5:45 pm
#86
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Wow, that's a really ridiculous and misleading quote you provided, BeatCal.
First of all, you did not provide attribution for your quote. Second, you took tiny bits of a much longer blog entry in order to "support" your point. And those bits you provided to us were taken completely out of context.
Here is the entire blog entry.
First of all, you did not provide attribution for your quote. Second, you took tiny bits of a much longer blog entry in order to "support" your point. And those bits you provided to us were taken completely out of context.
Here is the entire blog entry.
Nov 17, 2013, 6:59 pm
#87
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Jim is right on this one.
Pilots/Captains/FOs have no authority to cancel the flight.
They may refuse to fly the aircraft, but this doesn't amount to cancelling the flight.
The airline may decide to use another crew / aircraft.
Pilots/Captains/FOs have no authority to cancel the flight.
They may refuse to fly the aircraft, but this doesn't amount to cancelling the flight.
The airline may decide to use another crew / aircraft.
Nov 17, 2013, 7:26 pm
#88
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Mod note--
Just did a little thread cleanup.
I'd invite everyone to please read the Guidelines & Rules, especially the part on Personal Attacks:
http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#q87
Bolding mine.
As always, if you have questions, please contact one of the forum mods prior to posting.
Thanks.
aztimm
Just did a little thread cleanup.
I'd invite everyone to please read the Guidelines & Rules, especially the part on Personal Attacks:
http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php#q87
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Do not retaliate or respond to a personal attack. Too often, when an initial attack is made, others join the fray and, instead of becoming part of the solution, become part of the problem. Do not accuse others of being trolls. Should there be members whose posts you don't care to read, you can put them on your ignore list. To do that, click on MyFlyerTalk and then on Edit Ignore List in the Settings & Options section on the left-hand side of the page. Enter the name of a FlyerTalk member in the Add a Member to Your List field. Click the Okay button, then click the Save Changes button.
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aztimm
Nov 17, 2013, 8:27 pm
#89
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Burlax
You are correct, I stand corrected
Although I find it hard to imagine one captain taking over a plane after another said it I safe and the liability to the company if something then happened
You are correct, I stand corrected
Although I find it hard to imagine one captain taking over a plane after another said it I safe and the liability to the company if something then happened
Nov 17, 2013, 8:45 pm
#90
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US had a case last year when the east pilots were staging a slowdown. An A330 Captain had some electrical problem at the gate. After doing an unauthorized test she concluded that the battery was the culprit and refused to take the plane. Maint Control had maint run the proper tests and as I recall the battery had just been discharged somehow. Replacing the battery is a relatively quick procedure so maint did that and dispatch got another cockpit crew. The flight was delayed but not cancelled.
It was one of those things where only 3 people, the 1st cockpit crew, know for sure what happened. But another crew flew the plane to it's European destination and the crew that had layed over there flew it back with no problems. Needless to say that the Captain that refused the plane had a nice chat with the chief pilot (commonly called a "carpet dance" because you're called on the carpet to explain your actions).
What all that amounts to is that if a Captain is going to refuse to take a plane he/she better be on pretty solid ground, preferably with Maint Control's backing. It happens very infrequently since most times the Captain has talked to dispatch, maint control, etc before refusing the plane.
Jim
It was one of those things where only 3 people, the 1st cockpit crew, know for sure what happened. But another crew flew the plane to it's European destination and the crew that had layed over there flew it back with no problems. Needless to say that the Captain that refused the plane had a nice chat with the chief pilot (commonly called a "carpet dance" because you're called on the carpet to explain your actions).
What all that amounts to is that if a Captain is going to refuse to take a plane he/she better be on pretty solid ground, preferably with Maint Control's backing. It happens very infrequently since most times the Captain has talked to dispatch, maint control, etc before refusing the plane.
Jim