After long debate, refunded $132,000 in tkts today
May 8, 2012, 11:38 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
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After long debate, refunded $132,000 in tkts today
My company has a sales meeting coming up in Dubai at the end of the month. We bought 12 tkts on UA back in Feb in a mix of C and D refundable fares from all over the U.S. with 6 sales upgrades confirmed to F thrown in. I have tried writing, calling, screaming and everything else I can think of to let COdbaUA know that CO was NEVER my choice of airlines and unless things got better I was heading over to AA and more foreign carriers. I myself have never flown UA to DXB as I am a true EK fan but this was the first trip for most of our American employees and most of them like UA so as long as the fares where about the same I had no problem booking them all on UA so they could earn the miles.
After today's newest UA FU w my trip I'm on now (rude co phone rep, bull answer, etc - I've now I realized all the complaining in the world won't change a thing. (i myself am going to give the AA match a try) It makes me sick that UA is getting this revenue so I had my office call and REFUND every single tkt today. I made a copy of each tkt receipt, wrote "CANCELLED AND RE-BOOKED WITH BA" on each one and sent it off to our local sales office with a big CC to Jeff Smisek And the Dubai sales office. I figure we can all complain and SAY we are going over to AA, ETC but perhaps they will take notice if people with refundable tkts start refunding them.
FYI - Our BA sales rep not only re booked everyone thru LHR which is no different as everyone had to change at IAD Anyway - BUT THE TOTAL WAS $18,000 CHEAPER AND EVERYONE WAS UPGRADED GOING HOME TO F (over a 3 day period). I really hope someone at UA looks at my letter and wants to know why this happened. I'll be glad to elaborate if someone has the balls to call me
After today's newest UA FU w my trip I'm on now (rude co phone rep, bull answer, etc - I've now I realized all the complaining in the world won't change a thing. (i myself am going to give the AA match a try) It makes me sick that UA is getting this revenue so I had my office call and REFUND every single tkt today. I made a copy of each tkt receipt, wrote "CANCELLED AND RE-BOOKED WITH BA" on each one and sent it off to our local sales office with a big CC to Jeff Smisek And the Dubai sales office. I figure we can all complain and SAY we are going over to AA, ETC but perhaps they will take notice if people with refundable tkts start refunding them.
FYI - Our BA sales rep not only re booked everyone thru LHR which is no different as everyone had to change at IAD Anyway - BUT THE TOTAL WAS $18,000 CHEAPER AND EVERYONE WAS UPGRADED GOING HOME TO F (over a 3 day period). I really hope someone at UA looks at my letter and wants to know why this happened. I'll be glad to elaborate if someone has the balls to call me
Last edited by iluv2fly; May 9, 2012 at 5:19 am Reason: language
May 8, 2012, 11:50 pm
#2
Join Date: Oct 2009
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I hope that you can get their attention with this, but don't count on it.
I believe that UA has become incredibly impersonal, remote, and universally defensive about their shortcomings, and this, as much as anything, is driving customers away.
I believe that UA has become incredibly impersonal, remote, and universally defensive about their shortcomings, and this, as much as anything, is driving customers away.
Last edited by zombietooth; May 9, 2012 at 12:02 am
May 8, 2012, 11:52 pm
#3
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This will hurt. Not the 130k, but the general sentiment that you have to book away from UA these days. Right now I can say that I just flew my first decent UA flight this year (EWR-PEK in BF, proudly operated by Continental 
). I am still waiting for a ton of miles to credit and to correct as well as refunds and answers to Emails I sent months ago.
I haven't booked a single UA ticket myself this year and won't do so until the situation is improving by a few orders of magnitude. It really surprises me that UA is pretty ignoring the situation; maybe more cancellations of this magnitude will wake them up.
). I am still waiting for a ton of miles to credit and to correct as well as refunds and answers to Emails I sent months ago.I haven't booked a single UA ticket myself this year and won't do so until the situation is improving by a few orders of magnitude. It really surprises me that UA is pretty ignoring the situation; maybe more cancellations of this magnitude will wake them up.
May 8, 2012, 11:54 pm
#4
Join Date: May 2001
Location: HNL
Posts: 1,013
I actually think a few letters like this might actually get someone's attention. Even the knuckleheads "running" things at UA are likely to understand that losing $132,000 hurts! ^
of course, the downside of your actions are that UA is now going to 'upgrade' the blankets by just giving you the handtowels they hand out pre-meal (You will now be given a choice if you want it moistened or not), 3 grapes will be removed from each fruit bowl, and the inflight showing of first-run movies will now carry the footnote (*First-run in 1993) Maybe I should rescind my ^ ...
of course, the downside of your actions are that UA is now going to 'upgrade' the blankets by just giving you the handtowels they hand out pre-meal (You will now be given a choice if you want it moistened or not), 3 grapes will be removed from each fruit bowl, and the inflight showing of first-run movies will now carry the footnote (*First-run in 1993) Maybe I should rescind my ^ ...
Last edited by iluv2fly; May 9, 2012 at 5:20 am Reason: merge
May 9, 2012, 12:00 am
#5
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SFO, TUS
Programs: UA 1MM, AA Exec Plat, SPG Plat
Posts: 25
Love it
Let us know if you get a response
May 9, 2012, 12:08 am
#6
Original Poster
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The person that handles our travel in house said she would be VERY surprised if we didn't hear back. This is also the first year we did not "refill" our pass plus acct and we have no plans to. 25% off F,C,Y is a great deal but we can get that w BA or EK as well WITHOUT shelling out the $$$ in advance like you must do w pass plus.
May 9, 2012, 12:11 am
#7
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Programs: AA EVP, United 1K and 2MM, Starwood Lifetime Platinum, Delta
Posts: 219
Thank You!
For the very clear, powerful message.
For those of us who may book "only" ~$20K annually with UA - my fear is even my moves to AA will not register. Can only hope that the combined impact of the elite moves to AA can register at least some percentage point booking impacts that may cause them to re-evaluate 1K/GS treatment - along with our gold and platinum brethren.
But seeing 132K gone in one fell swoop is just such a nice concrete example that it should get some attention.
If not - shame on them.
For those of us who may book "only" ~$20K annually with UA - my fear is even my moves to AA will not register. Can only hope that the combined impact of the elite moves to AA can register at least some percentage point booking impacts that may cause them to re-evaluate 1K/GS treatment - along with our gold and platinum brethren.
But seeing 132K gone in one fell swoop is just such a nice concrete example that it should get some attention.
If not - shame on them.
May 9, 2012, 12:21 am
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Dubai / NYC
Programs: EK-IO, UA-1K2MM, ETIHAD-GOLD, SPG-PLAT LIFETIME, JUMEIRAH SERIUS GOLD
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For the very clear, powerful message.
For those of us who may book "only" ~$20K annually with UA - my fear is even my moves to AA will not register. Can only hope that the combined impact of the elite moves to AA can register at least some percentage point booking impacts that may cause them to re-evaluate 1K/GS treatment - along with our gold and platinum brethren.
But seeing 132K gone in one fell swoop is just such a nice concrete example that it should get some attention.
If not - shame on them.
For those of us who may book "only" ~$20K annually with UA - my fear is even my moves to AA will not register. Can only hope that the combined impact of the elite moves to AA can register at least some percentage point booking impacts that may cause them to re-evaluate 1K/GS treatment - along with our gold and platinum brethren.
But seeing 132K gone in one fell swoop is just such a nice concrete example that it should get some attention.
If not - shame on them.
May 9, 2012, 1:01 am
#9
Join Date: Oct 2007
Programs: UA 1K 1MM / AA PP, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 949
I've threatened to leave in the past for a variety of (relatively small grievances) in the past but post 3/3 is so bad that I told 1kvoice I had actually left and meant it. No bookings on UA since, all moved to AA... a few were even prior to EXP matching and I will only use UA for award tix unless the mess is cleaned up.
May 9, 2012, 1:15 am
#10
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Exactly! Vote with your feet! Ok here feet= (-dollars) lol.
I've threatened to leave in the past for a variety of (relatively small grievances) in the past but post 3/3 is so bad that I told 1kvoice I had actually left and meant it. No bookings on UA since, all moved to AA... a few were even prior to EXP matching and I will only use UA for award tix unless the mess is cleaned up.
I've threatened to leave in the past for a variety of (relatively small grievances) in the past but post 3/3 is so bad that I told 1kvoice I had actually left and meant it. No bookings on UA since, all moved to AA... a few were even prior to EXP matching and I will only use UA for award tix unless the mess is cleaned up.
As far as sending a message to UA, I doubt this would have any impact, at least to the extent that the CO approach is the one in place.
Unlike UA, CO is not interested in addressing issues of individual customers, at least beyond their normal system.
While at PMUA one might have received some attention, an expression of apology and a legitimate attempt to address issues, CO has always been about the system.
That $132k that they lost will be recuperated through sales to other customers. Or maybe it won't be entirely recuperated. But, in the long run, what they're concerned about is maintaining a rigid system that maintains a "consistent" product for the customer and allows for virtually no variation from the system.
That's also why any exceptional circumstance, such as IrrOps, is handled so poorly. They're fully aware that every time something like this happens they're likely alienating a customer, but their philosophy is that, on balance, it's in their interest to maintain the system rather than try to satisfy individual customers, which would force them to spend time and money.
That's also why they don't do an especially good job of taking care of high-end customers like GS passengers. In the CO approach, this type of customer, while lucrative, is also a liability, requires costly attention, perks and incentives.
They would just as soon sell seats to lower tier elites or kettles and not bother with all the extra cost and hassle of dealing with highly demanding high-end frequent flyers.
When push comes to shove and CO dba UA notices aggregate revenue dropping, they will not change their tune and start to coddle big spenders, instead their traditional approach is to initiate much wider based promotions, such as credit card elite or mileage giveaways, or elite qualification bonuses, which are likely to attract many more customers (and thus revenue) to the carrier, than a phone call from the airline to one dissatisfied customer who just pulled $132k worth of business.
Of course, even though it's CO dba UA, there is still some UA left in UA, so, who knows, someone might make an attempt to reach out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
May 9, 2012, 1:45 am
#11
Join Date: Oct 2007
Programs: UA 1K 1MM / AA PP, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 949
As far as voting with your feet, I think the only substantial impact would be for your own travel, in other words, you would no longer be flying UA.
As far as sending a message to UA, I doubt this would have any impact, at least to the extent that the CO approach is the one in place.
Unlike UA, CO is not interested in addressing issues of individual customers, at least beyond their normal system.
While at PMUA one might have received some attention, an expression of apology and a legitimate attempt to address issues, CO has always been about the system.
That $132k that they lost will be recuperated through sales to other customers. Or maybe it won't be entirely recuperated. But, in the long run, what they're concerned about is maintaining a rigid system that maintains a "consistent" product for the customer and allows for virtually no variation from the system.
That's also why any exceptional circumstance, such as IrrOps, is handled so poorly. They're fully aware that every time something like this happens they're likely alienating a customer, but their philosophy is that, on balance, it's in their interest to maintain the system rather than try to satisfy individual customers, which would force them to spend time and money.
That's also why they don't do an especially good job of taking care of high-end customers like GS passengers. In the CO approach, this type of customer, while lucrative, is also a liability, requires costly attention, perks and incentives.
They would just as soon sell seats to lower tier elites or kettles and not bother with all the extra cost and hassle of dealing with highly demanding high-end frequent flyers.
When push comes to shove and CO dba UA notices aggregate revenue dropping, they will not change their tune and start to coddle big spenders, instead their traditional approach is to initiate much wider based promotions, such as credit card elite or mileage giveaways, or elite qualification bonuses, which are likely to attract many more customers (and thus revenue) to the carrier, than a phone call from the airline to one dissatisfied customer who just pulled $132k worth of business.
Of course, even though it's CO dba UA, there is still some UA left in UA, so, who knows, someone might make an attempt to reach out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
As far as sending a message to UA, I doubt this would have any impact, at least to the extent that the CO approach is the one in place.
Unlike UA, CO is not interested in addressing issues of individual customers, at least beyond their normal system.
While at PMUA one might have received some attention, an expression of apology and a legitimate attempt to address issues, CO has always been about the system.
That $132k that they lost will be recuperated through sales to other customers. Or maybe it won't be entirely recuperated. But, in the long run, what they're concerned about is maintaining a rigid system that maintains a "consistent" product for the customer and allows for virtually no variation from the system.
That's also why any exceptional circumstance, such as IrrOps, is handled so poorly. They're fully aware that every time something like this happens they're likely alienating a customer, but their philosophy is that, on balance, it's in their interest to maintain the system rather than try to satisfy individual customers, which would force them to spend time and money.
That's also why they don't do an especially good job of taking care of high-end customers like GS passengers. In the CO approach, this type of customer, while lucrative, is also a liability, requires costly attention, perks and incentives.
They would just as soon sell seats to lower tier elites or kettles and not bother with all the extra cost and hassle of dealing with highly demanding high-end frequent flyers.
When push comes to shove and CO dba UA notices aggregate revenue dropping, they will not change their tune and start to coddle big spenders, instead their traditional approach is to initiate much wider based promotions, such as credit card elite or mileage giveaways, or elite qualification bonuses, which are likely to attract many more customers (and thus revenue) to the carrier, than a phone call from the airline to one dissatisfied customer who just pulled $132k worth of business.
Of course, even though it's CO dba UA, there is still some UA left in UA, so, who knows, someone might make an attempt to reach out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
If FT is the vocal minority or at least representative of overall trends, the company could be in big trouble. That is if your hypothesis is wrong and frequent 'high value' travelers are in fact very important to a major airline's P&L, an opinion widely regarded as mostly true throughout the industry.
May 9, 2012, 3:21 am
#12
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Posts: 2,221
I applaud your move.
All along I feel that only numbers will perhaps wake up United from their slumber.
What we need is really a coordinated move to alienate UA from our revenue stream. If we have a running counter with the amount UA lost due to their indifference, Smisek will have to answer to during the next financial quarter.
Hopefully there are more cases like yours reported on FT.
All along I feel that only numbers will perhaps wake up United from their slumber.
What we need is really a coordinated move to alienate UA from our revenue stream. If we have a running counter with the amount UA lost due to their indifference, Smisek will have to answer to during the next financial quarter.
Hopefully there are more cases like yours reported on FT.
May 9, 2012, 5:31 am
#13
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Programs: CO Platinum/1K, SPG Platinum/Ambassador
Posts: 1,705
Allow me to play the contrarian...what was the latest FU with your trip? What did UA do so wrong before now and with this latest snafu? Sounds like you resent the CO side and weren't a happy camper booking with UA already. Also, I know it's frustrating dealing with some agents but hanging up and calling again is a viable option, you know.
May 9, 2012, 5:43 am
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Sadly, I fully agree with most of your post. I was just saying that I have truly stopped booking UA and my dollars are going elsewhere- AA. Perhaps better suited for the 'how many are actually leaving UA' thread, just making the point that UA should feel that aggregate demand/booking hit in 2Q.
If FT is the vocal minority or at least representative of overall trends, the company could be in big trouble. That is if your hypothesis is wrong and frequent 'high value' travelers are in fact very important to a major airline's P&L, an opinion widely regarded as mostly true throughout the industry.
If FT is the vocal minority or at least representative of overall trends, the company could be in big trouble. That is if your hypothesis is wrong and frequent 'high value' travelers are in fact very important to a major airline's P&L, an opinion widely regarded as mostly true throughout the industry.
I would make one other point about CO. Sure, even they wouldn't turn away $132k worth of full-fare business, but, as a rule, they're not particularly excited about customers who buy full fare tickets.
Why? Because these customers aren't guaranteed to fly (or therefore actually spend the money) till they're on the plane.
So the net result is that a full-fare passenger can actually be quite a liability, holding a seat till the last second, then cancelling it, often so late that it becomes impossible to resell it, even at a lower fare.
They would much rather sell a non-refundable fare, which is money the company is guaranteed to keep no matter what.
So, yes, they lost $132k worth of business from Chinatraderjmr, but had he been the "typical" CO ideal customer profile, he would have purchased non-refundable Z fares which would be guaranteed revenue...
May 9, 2012, 5:48 am
#15
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Allow me to play the contrarian...what was the latest FU with your trip? What did UA do so wrong before now and with this latest snafu? Sounds like you resent the CO side and weren't a happy camper booking with UA already. Also, I know it's frustrating dealing with some agents but hanging up and calling again is a viable option, you know.
I was very happy with the pre merger UA for some of my needs. While I would never give them my own full F business over airlines such as EK, SQ, CX, I still gave them quite allot of my business. More importantly, I was content to give them full fare business for employees who preferred UA. So to say I was never a fan of UA in the first place is not correct