Programs: DL SM Gold, B6 TrueBlue, UA MP, AAdvantage
Posts: 9,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by gohima
Low labor costs and government help?
Of course, labor costs are lower on most of the Asian and Middle Eastern carriers, but European carriers, who do have international F, such as AF, BA, and LH have much higher labor costs than any U.S. carrier.
An airline such as Emirates, for example, vehemently denies receiving any help from the government and claims it buys its fuel on the open market from the normal petroleum companies.
But in the premium classes, the marginal cost of flight attendants is not nearly as much of a cost factor, given the average cost of the product, as it is in Y.
__________________ TWA: That Wonderful Airline.
To the great people of TWA: It's been 11 years already, but you have not been forgotten.
But regardless of the approach, it's fairly well universally accepted that spending money is necessary in order to make money.
Accepted by whom? Sales people and academics?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA Fan 1
I don't think the point of origination has anything to do with it. After all, foreign carriers that have super-premium international F, tend to fly it largely, or even primarily, to routes that end in the United States.
There is no reason why U.S. carriers, with a sufficient quality of product, couldn't do the same in reverse.
Point of origination is hugely influential. In general, originating corporate traffic will flow to the local or home carrier. This means that US carriers are catering to US corporations, while BA and LH cater to British and German business travelers.
If your home market has limited demand for super-premium international F, it will be difficult to maintain a super-premium international F cabin, even if the destination country has more robust demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA Fan 1
It has never been done successfully, but at least in part because it has never been attempted. The international F on AA on UA are the only data points, and they are hardly super premium.
So, you're saying that all airline management teams are stupid and risk adverse for having never tried to maintain a competitive F product?
So why in the world would anybody want to buy/fly Global First?! Space? Space is nice but not worth paying an extra several thousand for (or shelling out extra award miles, for that matter).
United is dropping the ball again: if you have an international F product, you dang well better make sure it stands out, or you're just going to piss off the people that buy it. I can understand eventually phasing it out... but until that day comes, these moves are just plain stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by channa
Which came first -- nobody paying for F, or a F so bad nobody wanted to pay for it?
Fact of the matter is there has generally been a global shift towards improving the C cabin. However, the vast improvements to C cabins has decreased the difference between C and F. Not many airlines can market the F "cabins" like SQ and QF have on the 380 so while there are differences between C and F cabins they are rather subtle (a few extra inches here, a bigger tv screen there, an extra outlet, etc). With only subtle differences many people very well may not see the need to spend the extra $$$ for F.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rch4u
I assume the BF entrees on sUA 3-cabin flights will still be pre-plated?
As pointed out hopefully it remains the PMCO way of not preplating. On my PMUA flt a few weeks ago I didn't like that they threw my entree down on a plastic tray.
__________________
UA MP 2013: 25,576
MM status: 429,603 Member since 2006
Programs: DL SM Gold, B6 TrueBlue, UA MP, AAdvantage
Posts: 9,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxf24
Point of origination is hugely influential. In general, originating corporate traffic will flow to the local or home carrier. This means that US carriers are catering to US corporations, while BA and LH cater to British and German business travelers.
If your home market has limited demand for super-premium international F, it will be difficult to maintain a super-premium international F cabin, even if the destination country has more robust demand.
Agreed, but the point is the U.S. has some of the richest points of origination with a built-in market of travelers willing to pay the cost of super premium F travel. Right now, all that demand is being met by non-U.S. carriers.
Quote:
So, you're saying that all airline management teams are stupid and risk adverse for having never tried to maintain a competitive F product?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by all airline management teams, since a number of airlines (not U.S. carriers) currently maintain super-premium international F products.
I would certainly never use the word "stupid" ever. It's not part of my vocabulary at all.
As far as risk adverseness, that's not only probably right, but it's also probably the right posture for managing an airline today.
I'm not saying that a super-premium int'l F is a good idea for a U.S, carrier, but they are certainly capable of pulling it off, even if the current status quo is likely much easier for them to manage.
What I will say about the airline management culture in the U.S. is that, while it is undeniably a brutally difficult business to manage, and I give them full credit for pulling off the daily grind, the culture of the industry can be surprisingly narrow and visionless.
The decade-long push-back on economy plus (from carriers other than UA, of course) is a good example. today, it is a common product, one that is also financially successful.
The different "Premium Economy" product available on numerous international carriers has become the single fastest revenue growth area in the business.
The brutal focus on the cost side of the ledger to the virtual exclusion of the value equation is another syndrome. Sure, controlling costs is important. But control your costs too much and it ends up costing you money, as you "commoditize" your product and thus hurt revenue. What good is that?
Making a profits is the net result of gross revenues minus costs. If higher costs result in even higher revenues, then not only is the airline doing better, but everyone wins, including the customer and employees.
That sort of vision is in painfully short supply in the airline industry today.
__________________ TWA: That Wonderful Airline.
To the great people of TWA: It's been 11 years already, but you have not been forgotten.
How about a book the chef type experience where you pay for the food at cost? Same with dom...Id be happy to pay united whatever it would cost them to acquire the dom (assuming it is below market value)
I realize that even the higher end airlines do cost cutting measures (Cathay doing breakfast instead of lunch on late morning departures comes to mind) but United has taken it to the extreme and thus there F product sucks!!
Labor costs are not an excuse if Qantas and BA can offer high end products.
Agreed, but the point is the U.S. has some of the richest points of origination with a built-in market of travelers willing to pay the cost of super premium F travel. Right now, all that demand is being met by non-U.S. carriers.
You missed the point: there is very little super-premium demand originating in the US. What demand does exist is generally going to a handful of destinations.
Programs: 5 years EXP, LT AA PLAT, SPG P, CX G, NEXUS/GE, A3 G, DL KM
Posts: 9,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by nova08
Fact of the matter is there has generally been a global shift towards improving the C cabin. However, the vast improvements to C cabins has decreased the difference between C and F. Not many airlines can market the F "cabins" like SQ and QF have on the 380 so while there are differences between C and F cabins they are rather subtle (a few extra inches here, a bigger tv screen there, an extra outlet, etc). With only subtle differences many people very well may not see the need to spend the extra $$$ for F.
As pointed out hopefully it remains the PMCO way of not preplating. On my PMUA flt a few weeks ago I didn't like that they threw my entree down on a plastic tray.
On CX the F cabin is much better than J in terms of service and booze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gohima
How about a book the chef type experience where you pay for the food at cost? Same with dom...Id be happy to pay united whatever it would cost them to acquire the dom (assuming it is below market value)
I realize that even the higher end airlines do cost cutting measures (Cathay doing breakfast instead of lunch on late morning departures comes to mind) but United has taken it to the extreme and thus there F product sucks!!
Labor costs are not an excuse if Qantas and BA can offer high end products.
And also buy some for duty free!
__________________
Supporters of the CCP are ruining world affairs.
Last edited by iluv2fly; May 7, 12 at 12:04 pm..
Reason: merge
Location: Fairfield County, CT| UA Gold, AA Platinum, *wood Platinum Ambassador, Hyatt Diamond, Priority Club Gold
Posts: 2,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCards
They're not preplated anymore on PS flights now that they upgraded them to the sCO standard for transcons.
On the contrary, the app and salad are now pre-plated on p.s. flights because of sCO standards. There's no more salad cart for p.s. flight - instead, a small container of ranch dress is provided with the salad. Main course has always been delivered separately per sUA standards. Upgrade? Hardly.
Programs: DL SM Gold, B6 TrueBlue, UA MP, AAdvantage
Posts: 9,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by sxf24
You missed the point: there is very little super-premium demand originating in the US. What demand does exist is generally going to a handful of destinations.
There is very little super premium F demand anywhere.
After all, what's the typical super premium F cabin? 6-10 or so passengers?
But the point is, a significant part of that small (but very lucrative) demand is either based in a few cities in the U.S. or is going there.
There is absolutely no reason to assume that if someone is currently flying super premium on SQ or EK, that they wouldn't fly an equivalent level of service on an American carrier.
Now, the fact that there is so little super premium demand is what makes risk-averse airline managers wary. Sure, they could make great money off six super premium passengers per flight.
But what is only 3 fewer book an F seat on one of these flights? Or, what if that number is 6 fewer...
I often fly the AF A380 in J...now I wouldn't classify AF F as super premium, but there are only 9 seats in F on AF's A380. I don;t think I have ever seen more than 2 passengers in F.
So, yes, super premium F can be very lucrative, but demands a hefty investment, involves a significant risk factor that is compounded by the built-in opportunity cost...
__________________ TWA: That Wonderful Airline.
To the great people of TWA: It's been 11 years already, but you have not been forgotten.
Was just reading a good NYT article on how food tastes different in the air than on the ground, and airlines are sinking $$$ into new menus and in some cases are going back to the drawing board on meals. They mostly discussed DL and LH, but referenced this United press release:
Interesting because after eating my millionth grilled tenderloin, I have not seen many of the changes they say were coming in Q2: Upgraded bedding, additional food choices, Philosophy branded amenity kits. My last flights IAD-FRA MUC-IAD were the same menu choices UA has had forever and the amenity kits were as uninspired as ever.
A few years ago, before the overhaul, I sort of remember UA announcing that they were in partnership with Westin where there would be "heavenly bed" items in premium seats--pillows, blankets. That never really bore fruit. Anyone have any confidence that UA will come through on the plans they tout in this release? I sure hope so.
Programs: Kayaker, RC Plat, FPC Plat, HH Diamond, National Exec, UA PP, AA P, VX Gold, SWA A, AT A+
Posts: 2,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA Fan 1
There is very little super premium F demand anywhere.
After all, what's the typical super premium F cabin? 6-10 or so passengers?
But the point is, a significant part of that small (but very lucrative) demand is either based in a few cities in the U.S. or is going there.
There is absolutely no reason to assume that if someone is currently flying super premium on SQ or EK, that they wouldn't fly an equivalent level of service on an American carrier.
Now, the fact that there is so little super premium demand is what makes risk-averse airline managers wary. Sure, they could make great money off six super premium passengers per flight.
But what is only 3 fewer book an F seat on one of these flights? Or, what if that number is 6 fewer...
I often fly the AF A380 in J...now I wouldn't classify AF F as super premium, but there are only 9 seats in F on AF's A380. I don;t think I have ever seen more than 2 passengers in F.
So, yes, super premium F can be very lucrative, but demands a hefty investment, involves a significant risk factor that is compounded by the built-in opportunity cost...
OK, so you and sxf24 agree. I think.
sbm12 did mention the redeployment of some of UA's 3 class AC to more lucrative routes... Perhaps if they see a glimmer of premium demand / traffic on these theoretically lucrative routes, they might consider upping ther game in the GF cabin. I doubt it though...
But the point is, a significant part of that small (but very lucrative) demand is either based in a few cities in the U.S. or is going there.
My guess is that less of it is going to/from the USA than staying in other regions, namely Europe and Asia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA Fan 1
Now, the fact that there is so little super premium demand is what makes risk-averse airline managers wary. Sure, they could make great money off six super premium passengers per flight.
Only if those customers pay full price (or something close to it) and if the company isn't offering that product at the expense of selling other seats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWA Fan 1
So, yes, super premium F can be very lucrative, but demands a hefty investment, involves a significant risk factor that is compounded by the built-in opportunity cost...
In other words, make large capital investments and hope that you might occasionally sell a small fraction of the seats on offer or skip the outlay and sell more of the reasonably profitable product that you already have established. I don't doubt that there are some willing to make that investment and hope for the best. But it doesn't strike me as a particularly strong long-term or short-term strategy, especially when the CapEx costs and lead-times are so high and the customer demand - both of routes and of product - is so dynamic.
They're not preplated anymore on PS flights now that they upgraded them to the sCO standard for transcons.
On the contrary, the app and salad are now pre-plated on p.s. flights because of sCO standards. There's no more salad cart for p.s. flight - instead, a small container of ranch dress is provided with the salad. Main course has always been delivered separately per sUA standards. Upgrade? Hardly.
The orig question was about the entrees. Prior they were in the oval dishes heated in the oven en masse and delivered with the claw tongs.
Now they have the larger setup that has to be dished up individually onto the plate in the galley. More work for FAs but makes for a nicer, bigger portion.
Yes do miss the choice of dressings - the tub is chintzy - but the size and quality of the mains went up nicely.
Programs: UA Over-Entitled 1K, AA Plat, Marriott Plat Prem, HH Diamond, Avis First
Posts: 1,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcislander
A few years ago, before the overhaul, I sort of remember UA announcing that they were in partnership with Westin where there would be "heavenly bed" items in premium seats--pillows, blankets. That never really bore fruit. Anyone have any confidence that UA will come through on the plans they tout in this release? I sure hope so.
I was on an international C flight once that did have the Westin "Heavenly Bed" products. It was so nice, amazing blanket, Westin green tea products in the amenity kit. Only saw it on that one flight, never before, and never since.
__________________
Post 3/3/12: UA Upgrade Rate 3% AA Upgrade Rate 100% Made PLAT on AA after making 1K on UA last year.
