I'm doing more branching out to VX and (horrors) WN.
Remember the days when people would do anything to avoid flying Southwest? These days, flying Southwest is a pleasure--and it's not because Southwest has gotten any better, it's because UA and all the other airlines have gotten worse. Who would have thought the day would come when Southwest would be the only major carrier with no change fees and 2 free checked bags?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg99
In short, thanks UA for the lifetime gold (for what it's worth) for me and my wife, but just like you're looking at me with a "what have you done for me lately" myopia, I'm looking at you the same way, and the answer is "not so much."
Programs: Over-entitled UA 1PMM; FB Silver; BA Silver; HHonors Diamond
Posts: 3,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcpaphd
Thank you for your kind words of approval.
Don't you believe that most of us million-milers would like to avoid legal action in order to get our promised “lifetime” benefits restored?
It is not a matter of avoiding legal action. As I have explained in a previous post, I believe that legal action will not have the desired effect, and therefore is not a good strategy.
Specifically, United has a massive motivation to fight a legal battle. If I were a shareholder, I would say that United has a fiduciary responsibility to fight that lawsuit til the end, because United will never want to relinquish the legal ability to change the FF program. And if the class-action lawsuit is typical, it could take decades before it would be settled, by which time the actual damages would be so small that even the lawyers would probably give up.
This is not an opinion as to whether or not you have cause to sue. I believe you likely do. It is an opinion as to what affect a lawsuit will have on the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcpaphd
Most of the million-mile posters thought highly of United Airlines prior to the takeover by the mostly former Continental crew. United was my airline of choice for many years, as it was for most posters to this thread.
After the demotions were retroactively announced, most of us wrote letters to the new UA management appealing the demotions. Most of us got ineffective canned responses to our letters. Many got no answers at all. I received one personal e-mail from Jeff Foland. All our efforts yielded zero headway on getting the demotions rescinded or reduced.
Among other things, we do not understand why those infamous screen shots were not honored (it does not matter if the two CR-1s were part of the merger - they were promised for life).
We also do not understand why other lifetime promises were breached.
Many of us within reach of the million-mile mark accelerated our travel to reach the million-mile point prior to the merger being completed. In the process, we spent a lot of money on travel we would not have spent were it not for the "lifetime" promises posted in the FAQs section of united.com. UA made a lot of money during the period that many relied on those screen shots that were retroactively breached by the new UA management.
If there were a way to negotiate with the new UA management other than through the courts, be assured, I and most others would prefer to avoid a class action.
The new UA management has allowed too much time to elapse while ignoring our concerns and efforts. It is clear, at this late stage, that the new UA management has no plans to make any amends for their deceptive advertising and unfair demotions.
Using the words “regrettable” and “confusing” as their excuse for breaching lifetime agreements just does not make it.
The train has left the station.
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I will add a third issue that I have with your posts. They are often cut-and-paste of the same thing repeated over and over again and again repeatedly the same identical as before ad nauseum.
In this case, your cut-and-paste argument had NO RELEVANCE to my post, other than the second sentence about the legal strategy. You made your objections clear the 10th time you posted them, there is no need to post the exact same thing again.
To be fair, though, you are not the only one guilty of this.
Programs: UA 1K Million Miler. Virgin Plat. HH Diamond + SPG Gold☻♥◙♦☺◄&#
Posts: 31,486
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbaneGent
The NEW United took Pre-Merger MMilers, who had spent time and money sitting on UA metal and took away every single promised LIFETIME benefit, added the spouse benefit and called it "new and improved"....they were DOWNGRADED.
This is the issue. I hate repeating this and I know some are sick of reading it, but threads are long and new people must see and understand. Many of us became MMilers expecting LIFETIME benefits.
Correct.
I shook my head with disbelief when I got the lavish hard box this year with all the "wonderful" MM bennies and looked at a friends paper envelope as a mere 1K.
They had made a huge effort and a great deal of expense this year over MM Status, when in fact it was diluted heavily.
If the Board saw that box, and read what those who got it think of the "New UA" they'd be pretty annoyed I think.
200,000 page views of just this thread alone is incredibly BAD for business. And gets worse each week.
In tough market conditions p!ssing off some of your VERY best long time clients all over a couple of lousy CR1s is just insane.
We were promised 2 x CR1s "for life" and I want that written promise of only a few months back honoured.
IE's were given '1K For Life" for often medium level flying decades back, and real heavy flying existing Elites have been dumped on. Makes zero business sense.
Any Harvard Business School Professor can tell them that for free.
.
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12 year 1K. Haven't booked UA flights in a year+. Take that. There ARE airline choices. You lied to me, so I'm making them.
It is not a matter of avoiding legal action. As I have explained in a previous post, I believe that legal action will not have the desired effect, and therefore is not a good strategy.
Specifically, United has a massive motivation to fight a legal battle. If I were a shareholder, I would say that United has a fiduciary responsibility to fight that lawsuit til the end, because United will never want to relinquish the legal ability to change the FF program. And if the class-action lawsuit is typical, it could take decades before it would be settled, by which time the actual damages would be so small that even the lawyers would probably give up.
This is not an opinion as to whether or not you have cause to sue. I believe you likely do. It is an opinion as to what affect a lawsuit will have on the issue.
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Speaking of repeating things, you have made the same comment about legal action several times in the past. You have no idea what is planned and you have no idea how much time that plan will require. Conjecture is rarely productive.
The new UA does not respond to our requests for negotiation over the demotions. Short of a class action, how do you propose we deal with the deceptive practices of the new UA management?
The new UA management knowingly and willingly breached written customer agreements that contained the words “for life” and “lifetime” with reference to specific million-mile program benefits.
Moreover, the new UA management continues to breach an unrelated "lifetime" program" that required a payment for membership. Despite threats of recourse against UA, that other program remains in default.
You have previously stated your point of view in connection with legal action. The fact that you repeated your opinion in the same post wherein you castigated me for repeating my complaints is, indeed, puzzling.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oenophilist
I will add a third issue that I have with your posts. They are often cut-and-paste of the same thing repeated over and over again and again repeatedly the same identical as before ad nauseum (spelling).
In this case, your cut-and-paste argument had NO RELEVANCE to my post, other than the second sentence about the legal strategy. You made your objections clear the 10th time you posted them, there is no need to post the exact same thing again.
To be fair, though, you are not the only one guilty of this.
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Guilty! I would think, based on your reasonably written post, that you would have realized this forum has different people coming and going all the time. Moreover, many people need to see the same item many times before they realize the impact of that item to themselves. Thus, repetition is a learning method, in many cases.
Initially this thread had several hecklers that often came out and attacked those of us who complained about unfair and discriminatory demotions inflicted by the new UA management. Many of those same people are now seeing that they, themselves, are also demoted and they are expressing their disapproval over the breached agreements.
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Last edited by dgcpaphd; Mar 25, 12 at 12:50 pm..
Reason: spelling & clarification
I do wish people would stop repeating that erroneous claim that MMs were promised 50k-level status, when we were really promised PE. One could argue that we were promised second-from-the-top status just as easily as claims that Infinite Elites were promised top-level status, rather than the 50k-level that they were also originally awarded.
Monsieur joel67 - you are correct, United promised (well, you can even state they didn't promise, technically), so let's say United stated in their marketing to it's members (for decades) that if they flew an actual 1,000,000 miles they would get LIFETIME benefits, one being Premier Executive.
The first time a colleague told tell me they were an AA million miler, I asked him what lifetime tier, to which he told me Gold or third tier (if I am correct, that was/is the same as PMCO's and Delta's MM). In my head, I would make the conversion to my world, that of the United Mileage Plus program, which would equal, "Premier" or Star Alliance Silver. I would then tell them, pre-merger of course, that even though United's MMiler was harder to get to, one would become Premier Executive, or American's Platinum level.
As a traveler, and maybe a more than a few can relate, my brain is constantly converting, be it currency, metrics, time zones, etc. So, in my mind, United's Million Miler status was harder to get to BUT the rewards equaled Premier Executive status or second tier.
So when I got the e-mail regarding changes to United Million Miler status, I was more than not happy, I immediately went to FlyerTalk just to see if there were others who felt the same; I had not been on here in a year or so.
Yes, United promised Premier Executive status for life, but in my head it was second tier. This is the mistake I initially made. The thing is this, coming from an industry where customer service is everything - heck coming from a family whose business was customer service - I never ever thought it was up to me to look at the teeny tiny fine print. I just took them for their word, wow can you imagine that? Taking a big company like United for their word?
We, United's top customers, are on here debating the meaning of the fine print on every sentence - it's awful, really. The days of sticking to their word is out the door - which is such bad bad PR for the airline. AND United is quite possibly reading our debates and changing the wording on their web pages...it's so cheesy on their behalf, I can't believe it.
I never ever expected United to turn on its customers like it has. To me, the Million Miler program isn't a privilege, it's not an upgrade or having a fee waived. United used the MMiler program to sway those who travel the most to fly their airline. My travel decisions for over ten years was based on this "promise". I don't want more, I certainly don't want less, I just want what was promised, regardless if it's not worth anything anyway.
UG
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baze
I think you need to read the title of the thread and the very first post again.
Messrs. greg99 & Baze -
My bad, yes, you are both correct. I won't change my initial entry since comments were made about it.
I guess the thread should be "CO/UA MMiler Grievances"...
Objectively looking at this thread, has it been hijacked with those complaining (or defending) the new MMiler program?
UG
__________________
An open letter to United Airlines, spread the word Million Milers United
Last edited by UrbaneGent; Mar 26, 12 at 1:06 am..
Reason: merge
Programs: CO Plat/1K, DL Silver, HH Diamond, bmi dirt, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 22,642
I was working a federal criminal trial once and one of the defense attorneys mentioned to me that a witness for the government had not "come to Jesus"
Basically, this meant that while the witness had plead out, and had turned state's witness he had not accepted that he had done anything wrong. Therefore when cross came around he looked like an idiot on the stand.
It's time to stop, it's time to come to Jesus. How many posts, how many silly legal theories, how many wasted hours. UA can't respond to this thread as long as you keep threatening legal action.
While I respect their view, I am asking those that want legal action to take it else where. This so UA can feel ok in responding to questions posed in this thread. Those that suggest legal action should no longer be welcome here. They are defeating any possibility of change.
Programs: UA 1K, Marriott Gold, National Exec Elite
Posts: 7,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by colpuck
I was working a federal criminal trial once and one of the defense attorneys mentioned to me that a witness for the government had not "come to Jesus"
Basically, this meant that while the witness had plead out, and had turned state's witness he had not accepted that he had done anything wrong. Therefore when cross came around he looked like an idiot on the stand.
It's time to stop, it's time to come to Jesus. How many posts, how many silly legal theories, how many wasted hours. UA can't respond to this thread as long as you keep threatening legal action.
While I respect their view, I am asking those that want legal action to take it else where. This so UA can feel ok in responding to questions posed in this thread. Those that suggest legal action should no longer be welcome here. They are defeating any possibility of change.
While I respect their view, I am asking those that want legal action to take it else where. This so UA can feel ok in responding to questions posed in this thread. Those that suggest legal action should no longer be welcome here. They are defeating any possibility of change.
whatever.
United made a commitment and they reneged. I don't see how you can effectively 'negotiate' a solution by whining on an IBB, without a real stick. Suing United would be a much more effective way to get their attention, just like filing a DOT complaint in an IDB situation like the "LAX Meltdown" would result in more favorable action relative to 1800-we-could-care-less.
Would it be 'nicer' if we could all just get along and UA announces something here? Of course, but, they haven't and they won't because they don't care and unless you actually take legal action, they view the hot air here as being inconsequential.
__________________
There will be some changes in the months ahead, and I think you'll like them. -- $misek
United made a commitment and they reneged. I don't see how you can effectively 'negotiate' a solution by whining on an IBB, without a real stick. Suing United would be a much more effective way to get their attention, just like filing a DOT complaint in an IDB situation like the "LAX Meltdown" would result in more favorable action relative to 1800-we-could-care-less.
Would it be 'nicer' if we could all just get along and UA announces something here? Of course, but, they haven't and they won't because they don't care and unless you actually take legal action, they view the hot air here as being inconsequential.
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Thank you for your intelligent and well organized post.
You described the most logical approach to deal with UA.
Unfortunately, it takes time for a firm to put together a class action case.
We would like things to move faster but that is just the way things are.
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I was working a federal criminal trial once and one of the defense attorneys mentioned to me that a witness for the government had not "come to Jesus"
Basically, this meant that while the witness had plead out, and had turned state's witness he had not accepted that he had done anything wrong. Therefore when cross came around he looked like an idiot on the stand.
It's time to stop, it's time to come to Jesus. How many posts, how many silly legal theories, how many wasted hours. UA can't respond to this thread as long as you keep threatening legal action.
While I respect their view, I am asking those that want legal action to take it else where. This so UA can feel ok in responding to questions posed in this thread. Those that suggest legal action should no longer be welcome here. They are defeating any possibility of change.
Interesting! Based on the number of entries to this thread related to the legal potential of this issue, you are just about the biggest single contributor, and on that basis alone, many times the reason the subject comes up as often as it does. You clearly love sharing your level of knowledge of the legal mechanism as you believe it applies to any potential scenario involving a class action against United. The other day you couldn't resist telling us that you had a law degree and going on to brag "a fairly prestigious one at that", so it's obvious that, even though you're not a practicing attorney, you enjoy demonstrating to the rest of us how "wise" you are.
Anyway, having easy unrestricted access to some of the top corporate lawyers (you know, the guys that went to the "really prestigious schools" and actually followed through and made a career of it) at a one of the many Fortune 500 companies I deal with, I ran a hypothesis of your argument by them: that UA in reading a forum, realizes that some of the contributors don't like the changes to a program they had made, and might have been willing to modify things somewhat. But, suddenly they see that there are a few posts that talk about litigation (class action etc.) as a possible remedy if United wouldn't respond. These posts then forced United to cease whatever consideration they might have had for dialoguing, reaching out, modifying, or changing the program to placate some of it's disappointed customers. Their answer: absolute bunk. Companies make business decisions. Chatter of all kinds goes on all the time. Any company with hundreds of thousands, or millions of customers, has some of them talking of suing them all the time, it's just a fact of life. Until it happens it's just talk. And the vast majority of the ones that do get filed get settled. What will drive United to change this program, on their part (if at all), will be market driven. If enough of us make United see that some of their decisions hurt their business, then they'll respond. Even if at some point someone, or party, filed a suit related to this, it still wouldn't preclude UA from making changes to the program they saw as prudent. Again, its a business decision for them to make as they see fit.
This thread has value because it helps keep the issue alive, which is United keeping it's commitment to "lifetime benefits" in exchange for a million or more BIS miles. Breaking your word to your best customers is never a good idea, and this example doesn't seem to be playing out too well. I've said before, United can use it as a barometer of a wider phenomenon, a leading indicator if you will of what is likely to happen. If metrics among high value flyers shows decline, then United might feel inclined to act. That is business, don't need a lawyer for that. We've always said we want United to respond in a reasonable way to us. Litigation remains a conceivable option if no other remedy can be found.
Now let's end all this invalid conjecture about United not being willing to work with us because of what has been written in these posts.
Customer satisfaction means nothing. Customer LOYALTY means EVERYTHING!
We, United's top customers, are on here debating the meaning of the fine print on every sentence - it's awful, really. The days of sticking to their word is out the door - which is such bad bad PR for the airline. AND United is quite possibly reading our debates and changing the wording on their web pages...it's so cheesy on their behalf, I can't believe it.
I never ever expected United to turn on its customers like it has. To me, the Million Miler program isn't a privilege, it's not an upgrade or having a fee waived. United used the MMiler program to sway those who travel the most to fly their airline.
snip snip
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Customers should not have to closely examine or be suspicious of language shown in a travel offer made by a reputable company. Nor should the customer have suspicion when the word “lifetime” is included in the offer.
Ethical management would honor agreements that include such language.
Using the words “regrettable” and “confusing” are not a remedy for breaching an agreement, particularly a “lifetime” contract.
It is clear that the new UA management is aware there is a breach of “lifetime" agreements it has with its customers. It is also clear that they do not care.
Given the unorthodox behavior of the new UA management, it appears management might be more concerned with earning short-term bonuses for themselves rather than what is best for the long-term survival of the airline.
A bonus generated from slashing benefits of its most loyal customers (especially “lifetime” promised benefits) is unconscionable and will only cause customers to lose incentive to stay with UA. Many have already reported leaving UA for other airlines.
The behavior of the new UA management appears as though it is intent on leading the company back to another bankruptcy. This will be the consequence of intentionally abusing loyal customers and causing them to defect to other carriers, thus causing a severe decline in future revenue.
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Programs: UA Gold-MM, HHonors - Diamond, Priority Club - Platinum, Marriott - Gold, SPG - Gold
Posts: 3,852
The next few quarterly reports will be very telling if there is a snowballs chance in you know where of anything changing. If they are making profits there is no market reason to change anything. If they are losing money then maybe they will see a need to change some things around.
The behavior of the new UA management appears as though it is intent on leading the company back to another bankruptcy. This will be the consequence of intentionally abusing loyal customers and causing them to defect to other carriers, thus causing a severe decline in future revenue.
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Well that's OK, as they have quite a bit of experience in that field.
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Posts: 3,808
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcpaphd
Speaking of repeating things, you have made the same comment about legal action several times in the past. You have no idea what is planned and you have no idea how much time that plan will require. Conjecture is rarely productive.
I only repeated the comments because I felt it was clear from your question that you did not understand my position regarding legal action.
You're right that I have no idea what is planned, all I've seen is a lot of talk about things happening behind the scenes. But frankly, planning and filing are two entirely different things. You can plan all you want, but until something actually happens, the threats of legal action are worth about as much as the conjecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgcpaphd
The new UA does not respond to our requests for negotiation over the demotions. Short of a class action, how do you propose we deal with the deceptive practices of the new UA management?
I would concentrate efforts on bringing the MM'ers together en masse and staging a significant social media campaign. In order to do that, you need to have extremely clear messaging and extremely clear and reasonable demands. The website is a start, but has some challenges (specifically around the clarity of the messaging/demands).
To do this, I would identify some key stakeholders and form some type of task force. Then I would take the task force offline for awhile and have that team come up with a consensus for how to approach this. By consensus, I mean that the most vocal must be willing to listen to the other stakeholders and mutually agree. I would keep the fire alive in the public forum but tone down the rhetoric until the task force has figured out the approach and the messaging. Then I would have the task force come back here and outline the strategy to the larger community.
