Programs: Tier 1: UA 1K, SPG Gold, Avis First, AMEX MR, My Borgata :) Tier 2: HH, TR, NW, AA, etc.
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryJ
1. Because the regs say so
2. Because the time of useful consciousness (TUC) at those altitudes can be very short. At FL350, for example, the TUC is only 30 to 60 seconds which would be reduced to 15 to 30 seconds if the decompression is rapid. At FL430 you're down to 9 to 12 seconds (4.5 to 6 seconds for rapid depressurization). This is also why the passengers traveling with children are instructed to secure their own mask first before putting the mask on their children.
MMMkay, I get that, but why is TUC not a consideration when the flight deck is fully staffed? In case of rapid decompression you both have the same 15-30 seconds to get your mask on, so I can't see how having both of you pass out at the same time would be any more useful than one of you passing out on the john and the other on the flight deck.
__________________
"Three fingered monkeys with one eye could have designed a better airport."-1993gt40 on IAD
Programs: UA 1K, HA Pualani Gold, AA Miles Hoarder
Posts: 2,368
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryJ
1. Because the regs say so
2. Because the time of useful consciousness (TUC) at those altitudes can be very short. At FL350, for example, the TUC is only 30 to 60 seconds which would be reduced to 15 to 30 seconds if the decompression is rapid. At FL430 you're down to 9 to 12 seconds (4.5 to 6 seconds for rapid depressurization). This is also why the passengers traveling with children are instructed to secure their own mask first before putting the mask on their children.
What's confused me on this, and I've asked on another pilot forum to no avail is, what is the logic behind this? Is the thinking that if two pilots are in the cockpit and there is a rapid depressurization, that at least one of them would have time to don the mask before becoming unconscious?
What's confused me on this, and I've asked on another pilot forum to no avail is, what is the logic behind this? Is the thinking that if two pilots are in the cockpit and there is a rapid depressurization, that at least one of them would have time to don the mask before becoming unconscious?
The masks are designed to be put on with one hand within 5 seconds. From experience, I know that's very easily doable.
With 15-30 seconds of TUC at most altitudes, it's reasonable to assume that at least one pilot will be able to get the mask on. But if there's only one of you up there, it becomes a single point failure and the FAA chooses to require the remaining pilot to always be on oxygen.
The FARs state that both pilots will be on oxygen any time the aircraft is above 41,000', or anytime one of the pilots is absent above 25,000'.
In practice, when do you put on the mask? Before the pilot leaves the cockpit? After the door is closed behind them? When is the mask removed? In the "old" days, the door was often left open or open/closed a lot during flight and I don't recall ever seeing the mask in use. I know when they do the switch now, I haven't noticed the mask used then either.
What is UA's policy for engaging in non-work-related tasks while at work?
We have a very new policy not to use electronic devices in the cockpit, and I've hardly ever seen anyone use iPods or watch movies, but occasionally I'll work on email on my laptop. We actually don't have any policy on reading (nothing in the FOM), but I also don't know anyone who'd pick up a newspaper in front of an FAA jumpseater.
We chat quite a bit enroute, but I also end up doing a good bit of reading (newspapers, I read the New Yorker), especially over the water. Books tend to be a little too engrossing, but on international flights some will read them.
We do have work to do, including plotting our position, taking down coordinates, checking fuel, confirming altitudes, etc., but they come at waypoints (over the water) every 30-45 minutes. Also, if there's turbulence, thunderstorms, or anything going wrong with the airplane, we can be very busy.
I know some will be surprised that we're not "paying attention" as much as they might expect, but honestly, there are very few trees that pop up in the middle of the road at 35,000'. Anything that goes wrong with the airplane will be accompanied by lights and noise, which will quickly get our attention. The workload of the job is also very intense for about the first 1.5 hours (including ground time) and last hour, but the middle part (be it 15 minutes or 14 hours) is less work intensive. It's fairly easy to sit back, drink some coffee, and read the NYT.
What you're really paying us for is not to sit there in cruise holding the wings level with our eyes riveted on the instruments (any 20 hour private pilot could do that). Even the 2 bunkies reading the paper could quickly make the right decisions and start the airplane heading for a successful diversion to Petropovlosk with an engine shut down in the middle of the night, if it came to it.
Another question: on the long SYD/SFO/LAX flights do you get to have a break - for sleeping etc, while other pilots take over? If yes, where do you go to rest? Same area as the cabin crew or do you have different rest areas?
Thanks .
The SFO/LAX - SYD flights are flown with the 744, and are about 14 hours long. Since it's over 12 hours, there are four pilots, and on a 14 hour flight, each would get approximately a 6.5 hour break. The pilot rest facility is a set of bunk beds in the back of the cockpit - there is also a chair in the cockpit for reading.
The 777 has different rest facilities - either a set of bunk beds immediately outside the cockpit and two business class seats, or 1 or 2 first class seats with curtains.
In practice, when do you put on the mask? Before the pilot leaves the cockpit? After the door is closed behind them? When is the mask removed? In the "old" days, the door was often left open or open/closed a lot during flight and I don't recall ever seeing the mask in use. I know when they do the switch now, I haven't noticed the mask used then either.
I usually put it on as the other guy is leaving the seat. It is one of the regulations that isn't universally followed, however, so I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't always seen it.
Programs: UA 3K, DL Plat, bmi Gold, AA Gold, PC Plat, IC RA, Hilton Gold, Marriott Gold, SPG Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 23,474
Thanks for the great answers, gumpfs, very interesting!
Quick question which may be kind of baseless, but I figured I'd ask. I watched Air Disasters about the Air China, erm, "incident" over the Pacific, and later on in the hearings the Captain mentioned how even during rest time one can never truly "rest" without being a bit concerned that something may go wrong. Maybe this applies more to Captain's since the plane is ultimately their responsibility, but do the resident pilots feel the same way? Do you have a hard time getting deep sleep even with a bed on a plane, or do you sleep without any worries?
I had no idea the masks could be donned so quickly by the pilots.
If they are not quick-donning masks (they always are) then one pilot would have to wear a mask at all times when above FL250.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky9876coins
the Captain mentioned how even during rest time one can never truly "rest" without being a bit concerned that something may go wrong.
We used to have a guy like that. Unnaturally nervous about everything. Very annoying to fly with. "The only thing more pathetic than a Captain who can't make a decision is the First Officers who have to fly with him!"
No. I wouldn't have trouble sleeping from worry that something might go wrong.
Thanks for the great answers, gumpfs, very interesting!
Quick question which may be kind of baseless, but I figured I'd ask. I watched Air Disasters about the Air China, erm, "incident" over the Pacific, and later on in the hearings the Captain mentioned how even during rest time one can never truly "rest" without being a bit concerned that something may go wrong. Maybe this applies more to Captain's since the plane is ultimately their responsibility, but do the resident pilots feel the same way? Do you have a hard time getting deep sleep even with a bed on a plane, or do you sleep without any worries?
I rarely sleep on my break, but it has nothing to do with worrying that something might go wrong. I usually have the first break, when I'm not tired, and I don't find the beds or even the F seats all that comfortable to sleep in. Most pilots sleep fine, however.
Programs: US GP, UA 1K, SPG Plat, HH Silver, MR Silver, Avis CHM
Posts: 1,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by gumpfs
The workload of the job is also very intense for about the first 1.5 hours (including ground time) and last hour, but the middle part (be it 15 minutes or 14 hours) is less work intensive.
I'm sure a lot of work is being done prior to landing so that begs a question. On my flight last week HKG-LAX ~ 15 minutes prior to landing the FA's delivered breakfast to the cockpit. I was surprised they were serving the pilots so close to arrival. The arrival meal service was served 90 minute prior to landing on the Upper Deck. Obviously there were more than 2 pilots on the 744 and the FA carried 4 meal trays. I had plenty of time to count as I was in 15H and the FA waited in front of me while the other FA waited for a passenger to exit the lav so the cockpit door could be opened. They waited a good 5-10 minutes and then finally knocked on the door to the lav and asked the passenger to hurry it along. The pilots couldn't have had more than 15 minutes (at most) to eat before landing. Why would the crew be served so late? At that point why not wait until on the ground in LAX? I'm sure that none of the pilots was flying another leg after the 12+ hour flight from HKG.
MMMkay, I get that, but why is TUC not a consideration when the flight deck is fully staffed? In case of rapid decompression you both have the same 15-30 seconds to get your mask on, so I can't see how having both of you pass out at the same time would be any more useful than one of you passing out on the john and the other on the flight deck.
IT'S THE REGULATIONS! That's pretty much the reason. With two pilots, the pilot flying will handle the aircraft while the other pilot gets his mask on. They trade duties and the other pilot gets his mask on. With two pilots, you have a better chance of one of the pilots being still with it if there is a rapid D versus just one pilot up there. If he goes incapacitated, there is no way to get up there to relieve him and get the jet down. So, it is a safety precaution.
__________________
These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jan 31, 08 at 11:05 am.
I'm sure a lot of work is being done prior to landing so that begs a question. On my flight last week HKG-LAX ~ 15 minutes prior to landing the FA's delivered breakfast to the cockpit. I was surprised they were serving the pilots so close to arrival. The arrival meal service was served 90 minute prior to landing on the Upper Deck. Obviously there were more than 2 pilots on the 744 and the FA carried 4 meal trays. I had plenty of time to count as I was in 15H and the FA waited in front of me while the other FA waited for a passenger to exit the lav so the cockpit door could be opened. They waited a good 5-10 minutes and then finally knocked on the door to the lav and asked the passenger to hurry it along. The pilots couldn't have had more than 15 minutes (at most) to eat before landing. Why would the crew be served so late? At that point why not wait until on the ground in LAX? I'm sure that none of the pilots was flying another leg after the 12+ hour flight from HKG.
Have no idea, maybe they weren't hungry earlier. The only rules are you can't eat below 18,000' when we go sterile cockpit, other than that you can eat when you want. International rules have some other rules for pilot flying and not flying and what meals they can eat. They wouldn't wait until on the ground since they'd be running to catch a commute flight home or running to their cars to drive home. We don't hang around the airport after we land
__________________
These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
I'm intrigued by the whole seniority process you have to go through within each aircraft class, so ...
- How do new hires get placed among the various aircrafts? Is it first come to existing employees but if no one wants, say the open 777 spot, a new hire may luck out and get placed there? Or do they almost always get put on the 737?
- Does it happen (and how frequently) that someone opted for a new aircraft, got trained and started as an FO but then went back to their former aircraft as Captain, because they just couldn't be in an FO position after so long used to be in charge on their former aircraft type?
.
