Don't blame seniority on unions. Seniority is used because it's the only system that works for large airlines (anything more than a dozen, or so, airplanes). Non-union airlines use seniority too.
Ever heard of merit? Pay for performance? Millions of Americans work under systems of that type.
1. On a LAX to LAS flight late Nov, the winds bounced us around and the the FA's had to remain seated for the entire flight. I was surprised when we were told that the airport closed shortly after our flight landed. Who makes the call to shut down an airport because of weather, and at what point?
2. Pardon if you don't find this question appropriate, but I'm curious if there is ever any "extracurricular activity" in the cockpit between a FA and F/O if Capt. goes to the lav, between Capt. & F/O, or ...?. If caught, is it just a slap on the wrist or are there stiff penalties?
Thanks again! This is such an great thread.
1) Airports very rarely ever shut down. They may limit the number of planes landing, stuff like that, but they don't just shut down. I think the only time that really happens is if they lose radios, or if the runways are shut down by something (crash, snow removal, etc..). During thunderstorms, rain, weather events, it is up to the pilots whether to land or takeoff. I think what the pilot might have said is they shut off arrivals right after you landed, so as to maybe realign their runways or something like that. They probably reopened back up shortly thereafter, but since I don't know the exact details, just making a guess on your situation.
2) Maybe back in the old old old days, but not in this day and time. When one pilot leaves the other pilot is on an oxygen mask, so kind of hard to do any hanky panky. Plus there is a voice recorder monitoring everything, plus the other pilot is only gone a couple minutes. So I'd say 99.9% of the time nothing would ever go on (always leave that .1% open for stupid people). Now, I do remember a story where some SWA pilots were found flying naked together, but I don't think that's the same thing
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I have read through most of the thread and didn't see this addressed anywhere. That is, is a pilot severely limited in the amount of pay they can ultimately earn if the don't want to move up to the larger planes? By that I mean, does a 737 captain with X number of years of experience earn the same as a 747/777 captain with the same number of years.
I was talking with a pilot one day while waiting for a plane to arrive and he mentioned that he was a very senior 737 captain. He chose to stay on the 737 because, as he told me, he would make more take off and landings in a 3 day trip than a 747 captain would make in a month and that was what was enjoyable to him. Not sitting for hours crossing the Atlantic on autopilot (or something to that effect). Was he giving up a lot of pay in order to stay on this airplane? I seem to remember that pay scales go up with years of experience and the size of the airplane flown.
Really depends on your contract. At UPS, pilots are paid for years of service, not what aircraft they fly. In the airlines, most are paid based on the size of aircraft you fly because the more passengers you fly, the more revenue you produce for the company so the more you make. Pretty simple.
Now, at United and probably most ALPA carriers, our pay scale maxes out at 12 years. So a 737 captain at 12 years at United will not make as much as a 747 captain at United. Where this takes a turn is in max hours versus normal reserve guarantee. If a person can hold a captain on the 767 and fly up to 89 hours a month, or hold captain on the 747 on reserve and only get paid 70 hours, the 767 captain could make more that month flying a smaller aircraft.
Just for grins I checked the United payscale. If a 737 captain worked 18 days for the month and got up to 95 hours of pay, he still wouldn't make more than a 747 captain sitting reserve.
It's all about lifestyle and what you want. I could hold a 747 or 777 FO postition and make almost as much as I do as an Airbus Captain and work a lot less a month. But I enjoy domestic flying more than International flying, so I choose to work harder but enjoy my flying. Just an individual choice.
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Someone posted a link to the pay scale upthread somewhere. You can probably search for it. (When looking at those nice big hourly numbers, remember what aluminumdriver just said about the hours--pilots get paid for half or less of the hours a typical job pays. Still, not too bad of a career...)
Ever heard of merit? Pay for performance? Millions of Americans work under systems of that type.
Horrible way for a company to work too. I came up through the military and the "Pay for Performance" system breeds brownnosers and people screwing other people trying to move up the ladder. I spent many years in corporate aviation and saw the same thing. People tend to worry more about doing extra things to move up versus doing their primary job the best they can do it.
What I like about a seniority system, is that when it is your turn to move up, you can move up. You don't have to brownnose the boss, go do extra duties trying to move up the hierchial chain to get a captain's bid. I could have a horrible relationship with my chief pilot and it wouldn't matter, he couldn't stop me from moving up to Captain when I decided to. When you have a system with 10,000 pilots, with numerous personalities and religions and SCABS and other issues, not worrying whether my superior has an axe to grind is a good thing.
I'll give an example. Say that one domicile's CP was able to determine which of his pilots got to move up to Captain. He is former SCAB, since the company takes care of those folks. He dislikes those who didn't scab or work within the union, so he rewards only those pilots who SCABed or like the company. Can you see the problem there? Today, a pilot moves up when it's their turn, SCAB, non-SCAB, company man or union man. Makes it much more fairer.
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These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
Someone posted a link to the pay scale upthread somewhere. You can probably search for it. (When looking at those nice big hourly numbers, remember what aluminumdriver just said about the hours--pilots get paid for half or less of the hours a typical job pays. Still, not too bad of a career...)
Correct, not too bad once you've worked for 20 years and move up to captain in the big planes. The best way to look at those pay scales, is to take the hourly rate, multiply it by 70 hours (Average guarantee). Then take that wage and divide it by 384 (that hours away from home on duty for the company) and you get a more realistic hourly wage.
Take my airbus rate. I make about $133/hr. Now x 70 is $9310. Divide that by my 384 hours I'm gone a month and it equates to $24/hr, that's 1/6th the rate of the $133/hr most people think we make. Remember, we really only make money when we're flying.
Now look at a first year FO in the 737. He makes $32/hr. 32 x 70 = $2240/month. Divide by 384 and that first officer of a major airliner is making $5.80/hr, LESS THAN MINIMUM WAGE! That is criminal. What's worse, a FO at a regional carrier like Mesa, start at $20 an hour. They usually fly more so we'll use 80 hours but they'll be gone more too. I'll add one more day gone a month and they come out at $3.92/hr gone from home. Wonder why so many pilots are fleeing the regional carriers and finding other work?
Numbers can lie unless you know what they are about.
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Last edited by aluminumdriver; Jan 26, 08 at 12:40 pm.
On Ch 9, why is the sound level of the first officer’s voice to ATC on the flight I am on is always lower than all others?
My guess is that we can control the volume level of transmissions coming into the plane radio, we can't control the outgoing transmission level volume. The radio used for CH 9 is just like our radio panels, so we have volume controls for each radio, but not for transmissions.
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I thought I remembered a more UA-specific one showing up recently as well. Might not have been in this thread (I stopped looked after finding the above).
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Wasn't that where 2 male pilots were going to pull a prank on a certain FA? They got naked and requested a FA come to the flight deck, and some other FA went up there and didn't find it funny. IIRC they both lost their jobs.
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Southwest Airlines apparently doesn't think it's funny that two pilots were in the cockpit flying nearly nude during a flight, so the company fired them.By Stephen M. Silverman
Originally posted Monday April 28, 2003 07:36 AM EDT
Talk about your friendly skies.
Two nearly naked Southwest Airlines pilots were recently fired after they reportedly took off all or part of their clothes in the cockpit while flying -- and then summoned a flight attendant to bring them paper towels and soda water.
"We conducted a thorough investigation and terminated the two pilots involved for inappropriate conduct," Southwest Airlines spokeswoman Ginger Hardage tells the Associated Press.
The pilots -- who have not been named, nor their flight numbers released -- have reportedly appealed their firings, arguing that they were flying that way after one of them had spilled coffee on a uniform.
That still doesn't explain why the second pilot followed suit.
As recalled by New York's Daily News, when the low-budget Southwest first took to the air in 1971, one of its selling points was that the flight crew showed a little skin. Flight attendants wore hot pants -- the females, at least.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
Pilots Lose Jobs for Losing Uniforms
Southwest Airlines apparently doesn't think it's funny that two pilots were in the cockpit flying nearly nude during a flight, so the company fired them.By Stephen M. Silverman
Originally posted Monday April 28, 2003 07:36 AM EDT
Talk about your friendly skies.
Two nearly naked Southwest Airlines pilots were recently fired after they reportedly took off all or part of their clothes in the cockpit while flying -- and then summoned a flight attendant to bring them paper towels and soda water.
"We conducted a thorough investigation and terminated the two pilots involved for inappropriate conduct," Southwest Airlines spokeswoman Ginger Hardage tells the Associated Press.
The pilots -- who have not been named, nor their flight numbers released -- have reportedly appealed their firings, arguing that they were flying that way after one of them had spilled coffee on a uniform.
That still doesn't explain why the second pilot followed suit.
As recalled by New York's Daily News, when the low-budget Southwest first took to the air in 1971, one of its selling points was that the flight crew showed a little skin. Flight attendants wore hot pants -- the females, at least.
I hate that people are so uptight. I would have found a prank like that hilarious! "You can't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive "
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
It wasn't me taking it too seriously, I wasn't there. Maybe they were real ugly or something???
Haha, no I was refering to SWA.. firing them over that seems a little extreme.. but I guess you can take the angle of fooling around in the cockpit could cause disractions that could be a safety issue or something.
I think if they were real ugly it would just be funner
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