Is it known to the mainline pilot community that XJET will be taking away mainline flying? I thought they were replacing another company on existing routes.
They are. But a lot of that express company's flying was previously mainline flying. United mainline flying (ie our jobs) have shrunk by 60% since 2001, while UAX outsourcing flying has increased by 55% since that time. So until I see United actually increasing our flying and jobs, I don't care what express carrier they have flying what, doesn't matter to me. Mesa is Expressjet is Skywest is Gojets is etc....they are all the same.
We are losing more and more market share and flyers as we keep shrinking down to the barbie jets. It's bad for our airline, it's future, it's customers, and unfortunately no one cares at WHQ. It's all about lower costs to United, and their newest RFP to AWAC has them asking for pilot concessions to keep their flying contract for United. It's gotten so ludicrous, that AWAC pilots who start out at $19K/yr make too much money now, and need to take a pay cut or United will farm out their flying to someone else. What type of pilot do you get for less than $19k/yr I have to ask you? It is sad, dangerous, and why I will not let me kids go into this occupation.
Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil. Have a good day, and thanks for flying United. The few mainline actual United pilots that are left do appreciate it.
AD
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These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
They are. But a lot of that express company's flying was previously mainline flying.
I can understand your frustration about the job being outsourced to UX, but just don't follow the line of thinking that this was a bad move (it's like being frustrated that your old job moved from a company in Delhi to one in Mumbai after it's already been offshored - what's the difference!).
If mainline pilots wanted to pick up more flying, shouldn't they simply ask to have the scope clause removed from the contract?
Just as Airborne said, when we pass 18,000' we set standard Altimeter setting and ding the seatbelt sign to signal the end of sterile cockpit to the FA's. That is also their clue to make the announcement on the electronic devices.
AD
Then why do FA's usually announce that electronic devices can be used above 10,000'? I'm quite frustrated when 10k feet is announce and then I'm asked to shut my computer when I can tell from Ch.9 that we're still at 15,000' (or whatever). What is the actual rule (if you know...not necessarily a question for pilots)?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfreeman02
Then why do FA's usually announce that electronic devices can be used above 10,000'? I'm quite frustrated when 10k feet is announce and then I'm asked to shut my computer when I can tell from Ch.9 that we're still at 15,000' (or whatever). What is the actual rule (if you know...not necessarily a question for pilots)?
I believe the FAA rule for sterile cockpit is 10,000 feet...UA just goes the extra mile (actually 1.5 miles) in making it 18,000 ft. There is no FAA rule that electronics have to wait until 18,000....which is why you hear many F/As make the announcement earlier. The "rule" is "approximately 10 minutes after take-off"....which is usually about the same time you pass through 18,000. Personally, I just start my announcements about 5-6 min after take-off, and save the electronic device part until the end. Sometimes it happens that the electronic device announcement comes right at 18,000, sometimes a little bit earlier. Hope this helps!
They are. But a lot of that express company's flying was previously mainline flying. United mainline flying (ie our jobs) have shrunk by 60% since 2001, while UAX outsourcing flying has increased by 55% since that time. So until I see United actually increasing our flying and jobs, I don't care what express carrier they have flying what, doesn't matter to me. Mesa is Expressjet is Skywest is Gojets is etc....they are all the same.
We are losing more and more market share and flyers as we keep shrinking down to the barbie jets. It's bad for our airline, it's future, it's customers, and unfortunately no one cares at WHQ. It's all about lower costs to United, and their newest RFP to AWAC has them asking for pilot concessions to keep their flying contract for United. It's gotten so ludicrous, that AWAC pilots who start out at $19K/yr make too much money now, and need to take a pay cut or United will farm out their flying to someone else. What type of pilot do you get for less than $19k/yr I have to ask you? It is sad, dangerous, and why I will not let me kids go into this occupation.
Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil. Have a good day, and thanks for flying United. The few mainline actual United pilots that are left do appreciate it.
Any ideas what we can do about this? It seems that mainline is just working its way to extinction. Maybe that's quite fine with executives - their ideal airline has no planes or crews, they take the CRS, marketing, credit cards, programs, etc. and get around air labor costs by continually redoing contracts to the lowest bidder. Let domestic mainline peel off as people retire, or if that's not enough, furlough. If an sub gets too much seniority with pilots getting $25k instead of $19k, well let them go out of business and go with a new upstart. I'm surprised this isn't talked about more (although it is occasionally - e.g. http://www.usatoday.com/travel/colum...airlines_N.htm).
My blood boils as a passenger, too; aside from the moral grounds and having a non-UA mainline pilot in the extended family, I can't imagine this being good for my safety. I fly mainline now as much as possible even though it means taking inconvenient times or now not going to some locations. Although that's becoming more and more difficult. Anyway, telling all my friends, family, and anyone I can to do so, doesn't seem like an effective way to stem the tide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freshairborne
The point is, we have other stuff we do at that altitude. The smoking sign chime is only one of them.
Freshairborne
Thanks, makes sense now, as doing the rest of transition is pretty fundamental. Good info as always.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Nov 17, 09 at 7:15 pm.
Reason: merge
I can understand your frustration about the job being outsourced to UX, but just don't follow the line of thinking that this was a bad move (it's like being frustrated that your old job moved from a company in Delhi to one in Mumbai after it's already been offshored - what's the difference!).
If mainline pilots wanted to pick up more flying, shouldn't they simply ask to have the scope clause removed from the contract?
LOL, if only it were that easy. IF we strike soon over a new contract, the main issue will be the outsourcing of our flying to UAX and Star Alliance partners. We have reached our limits on this issue. But we can't just demand United do something, we have to have it in our contract. Our scope clause was decimated in BK, so that is how United is able to keep growing UAX in leaps and bounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHeadFlyer
Any ideas what we can do about this? It seems that mainline is just working its way to extinction. Maybe that's quite fine with executives - their ideal airline has no planes or crews, they take the CRS, marketing, credit cards, programs, etc. and get around air labor costs by continually redoing contracts to the lowest bidder. Let domestic mainline peel off as people retire, or if that's not enough, furlough. If an sub gets too much seniority with pilots getting $25k instead of $19k, well let them go out of business and go with a new upstart. I'm surprised this isn't talked about more (although it is occasionally - e.g. http://www.usatoday.com/travel/colum...airlines_N.htm).
My blood boils as a passenger, too; aside from the moral grounds and having a non-UA mainline pilot in the extended family, I can't imagine this being good for my safety. I fly mainline now as much as possible even though it means taking inconvenient times or now not going to some locations. Although that's becoming more and more difficult. Anyway, telling all my friends, family, and anyone I can to do so, doesn't seem like an effective way to stem the tide.
Thanks, makes sense now, as doing the rest of transition is pretty fundamental. Good info as always.
Not sure what you can do other than write emails to United (they don't seem to care), or refuse to fly on a regional jet. If enough folks refused, they would get the message, but since I don't see that happening, probably not much is going to happen. As much as MESA stunk, folks still flew on them. Getting more restrictions in our scope clause is probably our biggest need. As for you the passenger, many folks don't feel safe on the small jets with sometimes inexperienced pilots, and thus don't fly them. That is just an individual passenger choice really.
AD
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These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
They are. But a lot of that express company's flying was previously mainline flying. United mainline flying (ie our jobs) have shrunk by 60% since 2001, while UAX outsourcing flying has increased by 55% since that time. So until I see United actually increasing our flying and jobs, I don't care what express carrier they have flying what, doesn't matter to me. Mesa is Expressjet is Skywest is Gojets is etc....they are all the same.
We are losing more and more market share and flyers as we keep shrinking down to the barbie jets. It's bad for our airline, it's future, it's customers, and unfortunately no one cares at WHQ. It's all about lower costs to United, and their newest RFP to AWAC has them asking for pilot concessions to keep their flying contract for United. It's gotten so ludicrous, that AWAC pilots who start out at $19K/yr make too much money now, and need to take a pay cut or United will farm out their flying to someone else. What type of pilot do you get for less than $19k/yr I have to ask you? It is sad, dangerous, and why I will not let me kids go into this occupation.
Sorry for the rant, but this makes my blood boil. Have a good day, and thanks for flying United. The few mainline actual United pilots that are left do appreciate it.
AD
AWAC is which regional?
How many hours do these guys have at a minimum (roughly) to get in the door?
I looked up this year's pay chart and a 2Lt makes $31K (base pay), and with 52 weeks to learn to fly; 260 training days and assumed flying 2 hours a day has 520 hours of military time at graduation. (Probably real high, but the pattern @ Randolph AFB seems very busy)
The bottom line is I'm trying to get a perspective of the number of hours the regional guys have when they start…
Sorry if this rambled, but it's been face shot after face shot this week.
Thanks.
Location: Nearly equidistant from EWR and PHL. Stranger in a strange land - a Devils fan in Phlyers country.
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I remember hearing, though I don't know how true it is now, that Mesa at one point was hiring with 500 hours of multiengine time and an ATP. Also can't recall when that was.
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I remember hearing, though I don't know how true it is now, that Mesa at one point was hiring with 500 hours of multiengine time and an ATP. Also can't recall when that was.
What scope clauses are in effect at the moment? I heard that UA mainline can't have less jets than UAX. Is this true? As a United fan, I hate seeing less and less jets in the fleet and more and more UAX and I hope something gets done about this and soon.
What is your opinion on the new pilot being elected to the BOD? Do you see that having a positive/negative impact on contract negotiations that are due next year?
On another note, I did book my father for a SMF-ORD-LAN and return trip for next week. Made sure to put him on as much mainline as possible.
T It's all about lower costs to United, and their newest RFP to AWAC has them asking for pilot concessions to keep their flying contract for United. It's gotten so ludicrous, that AWAC pilots who start out at $19K/yr make too much money now, and need to take a pay cut or United will farm out their flying to someone else.
AD
Hey AD,
Thanks as always for your coherent and thorough discussion. Just a quick question: AWAC=Air Wisconsin Airlines Corp, who doesn't currently fly for UA unless I missed something. Is this an RFP to bring them back on board, or the last RFP which didn't go through (when they switched their flying to USAirways in 2005 or 2006)? Or were you referring to another regional by any chance?
To Aluminumdriver, Ethansma24, Freshairborne, and other UA Pilots on this thread, Thank you so very much! Not only do you look out for our safety when we fly, but also you take the time to care and respond to our inquires!
Had a great experience and was wondering if you have passengers that you know by name. Late September, I hit the MM on a ORD-MCO run. It was a great flight and had a great plane Captain, who recorded the long & lat of my MM crossing along with other nice gestures. Last week I was flying ORD-MCO and low & behold there was Capt. K.D.! When I walked aboard, we greeted each other as we both remembered the MM flight earlier. Three days later, going back to ORD, who was walking around the aircraft doing a safety inspection? Yep! It's really nice when you board or deplane and the Captain greets you by name! Now that's flying the friendly skies!
My blood boils as a passenger, too; aside from the moral grounds and having a non-UA mainline pilot in the extended family, I can't imagine this being good for my safety. I fly mainline now as much as possible even though it means taking inconvenient times or now not going to some locations. Although that's becoming more and more difficult. Anyway, telling all my friends, family, and anyone I can to do so, doesn't seem like an effective way to stem the tide.
No, it's not going to be effective and this is a REALLY uphill battle to try to fight. Outside of our obsessive FT community, how many passengers really have any idea what type of aircraft they'll be on until they're actually standing at the gate, looking at it? I'm guessing at least 90%+ don't have any idea.
They get disappointed when the see the RJ, sit in the little postage tube for 2 hours, then forget about it.
This does bring to mind the pretty funny WN commercial with the spinning "what size plane am I going to get today?" wheel. However, I think most passengers will continue to take the flight time that's most convenient.
How many hours do these guys have at a minimum (roughly) to get in the door?
I looked up this year's pay chart and a 2Lt makes $31K (base pay), and with 52 weeks to learn to fly; 260 training days and assumed flying 2 hours a day has 520 hours of military time at graduation. (Probably real high, but the pattern @ Randolph AFB seems very busy)
The bottom line is I'm trying to get a perspective of the number of hours the regional guys have when they start…
Sorry if this rambled, but it's been face shot after face shot this week.
Thanks.
AFJon
Yes, AWAC is Air Wisconsin. Not sure how many hours to get hired these days, with so many furloughed pilots, anyone hiring can get more experienced pilots who are willing to work for that low pay. Back a while ago I know the experience base was much lower for FO's entering the ranks, especially at MESA where they were quiting in droves. Right now, with 1450 United pilots furloughed, 300+ CAL pilots furloughed, 2000+ AMR pilots furloughed, etc...there is a lot more experience out there on the streets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UAL awesome
What scope clauses are in effect at the moment? I heard that UA mainline can't have less jets than UAX. Is this true? As a United fan, I hate seeing less and less jets in the fleet and more and more UAX and I hope something gets done about this and soon.
What is your opinion on the new pilot being elected to the BOD? Do you see that having a positive/negative impact on contract negotiations that are due next year?
On another note, I did book my father for a SMF-ORD-LAN and return trip for next week. Made sure to put him on as much mainline as possible.
1) Our scope clause is pretty weak post BK. It prohibits UAX from flying more block hours than mainline. That's it. Thus the reason UAX has increased flying from 25% of our flying pre-BK to almost 60% of our domestic flying now. The only other restriction (which is a big one) is limiting UAX to 70 seats or less. United wants 90 seaters badly, but we won't let them do it with UAX, give it to Mainline. We have agreed to do it for industry rates like JBLUE, but management won't even answer us because they want UAX to do it for Walmart wages. That is the issue I see us striking over unfortunately.
2) Our new master chairman has been around ALPA politics for decades, so I have high hopes that she can do a good job. I think anytime you get someone new, they have a fresh start with the BOD for them to listen to her opinions. Maybe they hear her concerns and finally act on some of them. But, not holding my breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKE-MR
Hey AD,
Thanks as always for your coherent and thorough discussion. Just a quick question: AWAC=Air Wisconsin Airlines Corp, who doesn't currently fly for UA unless I missed something. Is this an RFP to bring them back on board, or the last RFP which didn't go through (when they switched their flying to USAirways in 2005 or 2006)? Or were you referring to another regional by any chance?
Yeah, it was a new RFP for AWAC to get back into the UAX flying, although by reading their union newsletter, is sounded like they were still doing some of the UAX flying, so I assumed they still were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by northsideguy
To Aluminumdriver, Ethansma24, Freshairborne, and other UA Pilots on this thread, Thank you so very much! Not only do you look out for our safety when we fly, but also you take the time to care and respond to our inquires!
Had a great experience and was wondering if you have passengers that you know by name. Late September, I hit the MM on a ORD-MCO run. It was a great flight and had a great plane Captain, who recorded the long & lat of my MM crossing along with other nice gestures. Last week I was flying ORD-MCO and low & behold there was Capt. K.D.! When I walked aboard, we greeted each other as we both remembered the MM flight earlier. Three days later, going back to ORD, who was walking around the aircraft doing a safety inspection? Yep! It's really nice when you board or deplane and the Captain greets you by name! Now that's flying the friendly skies!
I wish I could remember passengers, but honestly I really don't. I just travel too many places and odd times that I don't do any particular route over and over where you may get to know certain passengers. I know FA's can do that, but as pilots it is much harder to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandalby
No, it's not going to be effective and this is a REALLY uphill battle to try to fight. Outside of our obsessive FT community, how many passengers really have any idea what type of aircraft they'll be on until they're actually standing at the gate, looking at it? I'm guessing at least 90%+ don't have any idea.
They get disappointed when the see the RJ, sit in the little postage tube for 2 hours, then forget about it.
This does bring to mind the pretty funny WN commercial with the spinning "what size plane am I going to get today?" wheel. However, I think most passengers will continue to take the flight time that's most convenient.
Make that take the flight that is the cheapest. That really is the bottom line for most passengers these days, at least the leisure travelers. Convenience is more for the frequent traveler or business traveler. If Joe Blow traveler can save $10 flying a RJ over an Airbus, he'll do it, even on a 3 hour flight. I can't, it is just too painful.
Thanks for the nice words everyone. Have a great day.
AD
__________________
These views are my own and do not represent the views of United Airlines or the ALPA.
Yes, AWAC is Air Wisconsin. Not sure how many hours to get hired these days, with so many furloughed pilots, anyone hiring can get more experienced pilots who are willing to work for that low pay. Back a while ago I know the experience base was much lower for FO's entering the ranks, especially at MESA where they were quiting in droves. Right now, with 1450 United pilots furloughed, 300+ CAL pilots furloughed, 2000+ AMR pilots furloughed, etc...there is a lot more experience out there on the streets.
AWAC is not hiring and hasn't for a while. AWAC is also one of the best paid regionals in the industry and this is under a concessionary contract (that arguably was achieved my management under false pretenses). The rumor is that when AWAC management approached the union for concessions so they could bid the UA flying, the union just stood up and walked out of the room. More pilots than you think get it too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
1) Our scope clause is pretty weak post BK. It prohibits UAX from flying more block hours than mainline. That's it. Thus the reason UAX has increased flying from 25% of our flying pre-BK to almost 60% of our domestic flying now. The only other restriction (which is a big one) is limiting UAX to 70 seats or less. United wants 90 seaters badly, but we won't let them do it with UAX, give it to Mainline. We have agreed to do it for industry rates like JBLUE, but management won't even answer us because they want UAX to do it for Walmart wages. That is the issue I see us striking over unfortunately.
I hope your anger is squarely pointed at WHQ and not the guys flying those planes, because this is the problem. I can't blame ExJet for taking UA's RFP, they also have aircraft in the desert and pilots on the street.
As a good friend of mine says, "Scope isn't just a mouthwash." I really hope you guys stand your ground on this part of the contract. I can guarantee that the temptation to take money for scope will come up and I pray you guys don't fall into that trap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
Yeah, it was a new RFP for AWAC to get back into the UAX flying, although by reading their union newsletter, is sounded like they were still doing some of the UAX flying, so I assumed they still were.
AWAC flies for US Airways and does ground handling for UA. I don't think they've flown for UA since they got kicked out of DEN and ORD many years ago.
Checko
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