Moderator: Hawaii-Based Airlines, Travel with Children & United Mileage Plus
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Here's a suggestion:
We value the contributions of the United pilots who choose to share their insight and knowledge to the FlyerTalk Commununity. We also realize that they are under no obligation to respond to all of the topics or questions posed in this thread. To help maintain the flow of dialogue in this forum, can we respect that none of the pilots here seem interested in discussing or debating cockpit access/securtity procedures? For those wishing to discuss this topic with other FTers, the Travel Safety and Security Forum would most likely welcome that dialog. I'd suggest that this thread is best served by members asking questions of United's pilots and gaining insight from their responses. I'd like to think our pilots may find some value in some of our questions, too.
Thanks for everyone's consideration.
FlyinHawaiian, Co-Moderator
United Mileage Plus Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyinHawaiian
Here's a suggestion:
We value the contributions of the United pilots who choose to share their insight and knowledge to the FlyerTalk Commununity. We also realize that they are under no obligation to respond to all of the topics or questions posed in this thread. To help maintain the flow of dialogue in this forum, can we respect that none of the pilots here seem interested in discussing or debating cockpit access/securtity procedures? For those wishing to discuss this topic with other FTers, the Travel Safety and Security Forum would most likely welcome that dialog. I'd suggest that this thread is best served by members asking questions of United's pilots and gaining insight from their responses. I'd like to think our pilots may find some value in some of our questions, too.
Thanks for everyone's consideration.
FlyinHawaiian, Co-Moderator
United Mileage Plus Forum
<applause> and a big to what my esteemed colleague says
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just my humble opinion but i used to try and stop hockey pucks so what do i know . Nighthawks fans are everywhere
We value the contributions of the United pilots who choose to share their insight and knowledge to the FlyerTalk Commununity. We also realize that they are under no obligation to respond to all of the topics or questions posed in this thread. To help maintain the flow of dialogue in this forum, can we respect that none of the pilots here seem interested in discussing or debating cockpit access/securtity procedures? For those wishing to discuss this topic with other FTers, the Travel Safety and Security Forum would most likely welcome that dialog. I'd suggest that this thread is best served by members asking questions of United's pilots and gaining insight from their responses. I'd like to think our pilots may find some value in some of our questions, too.
Thanks for everyone's consideration.
FlyinHawaiian, Co-Moderator
United Mileage Plus Forum
Thank you Mod - exactly what I was hoping you'd do. It's obvious there's more to learn about OTHER things from our UA pilot friends, and we don't want them walking away.
Thanks again to AD, Waterfalls, et al who know we appreciate you spending your "downtime" with us curious/fascinated types!
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Pilots, do you miss the clapping after landing? When I started first flying (as a passenger) in the early '90 often the passengers clapped after landing, even for a regular flight.
Pilots, do you miss the clapping after landing? When I started first flying (as a passenger) in the early '90 often the passengers clapped after landing, even for a regular flight.
Hard to miss something I've rarely every seen. In my decades of flying, the only clapping I've heard is usually after a mechanical issue inflight. I'll get a compliment sometimes as folks deplane on a nice landing, but not clapping.
What's funny is most of the time that passengers compliment us on a landing, it's an easy landing with good weather and we happen to grease it on. Yet on the landings that we're working really hard, like high crosswinds, storms, or snowy icy runways, we usually don't hear anything. But we're complimenting each other up front ourselves.
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I was once on a LAX-BOS flight...perfect day of flying...BOS was sunny, and calm winds. I was in 2C on the 320 (maybe a 319), and I guess the pilot was taking a sip of his coffee when he was supposed to be flaring the aircraft...cause we hit hard and bounced.
The funny part though was the lady in 2B who was doing a crossword puzzle. When we touched down (the first time ), her pen she was using ripped a whole through the paper, and she screamed out a ,"What the hell ... [mumble] ..."
As I was deplaning, the cockpit door opened up, and the captain gave me a look, I said, "Who was it that greased the landing?" In unison, both the FO and Captain pointed at each other.
We all had a good chuckle (later I found out that it was, in fact, the FO).
PS - Let me add that it wasn't the worst landing in the world...just an attention grabbing one
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UAX_Brasilia
As I was deplaning, the cockpit door opened up, and the captain gave me a look, I said, "Who was it that greased the landing?" In unison, both the FO and Captain pointed at each other.
Funny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freshairborne
Personally, I'd like to do international flying, but there is none for us here in Denver. To fly it, I'd have to bid for, and be awarded, a crew base change. About 60% of pilots and flight attendants commute on one or more flights to get to their crew base to fly a trip. A friend of mine who is very close to my seniority lived in and was based in Washington, DC. They moved to Boulder, and he took a bid in Denver. It took him about 3 months to get so disgusted with the quality of flying that is in Denver that he bid back to D.C., and commutes. He actually gets 2 more days off, including commuting back & forth for every trip, than I do.
Could you elaborate on the "quality of flying that is in Denver" remark? What makes DEN such an undesirable base for some? Is it the equipment limitations? Altitude issues, combined with our such pleasant winds, especially this time of year? Or some other factor?
I'm always amazed at the number of crew I have, especially on international flights out of IAD, who commuted with me on my connector out of DEN. This conversation is helping me understand it a bit better.
Things sure have changed since my mother was a FA in the early 60s - back then (before FAs were allowed to be married... in the days of "coffee, tea or me") 6 months of seniority got you pretty much any route you wanted.
He's talking about the type of flying at DEN. It has no base for large aircraft, no 777 or 747 flying, so senior pilots that live there that want to fly the higher paid aircraft, have to commute to other domiciles, like IAD, ORD and SFO. Then, for those aircraft that do have a base there, like a 757 fleet, pilots that live there tend to be VERY senior pilots. So someone living in Denver would be junior and be on reserve or have a junior line working every weekend and holiday at DEN, or he could commute to ORD and be a lot more senior with a better work schedule.
There are a lot of variables on what a pilot wants and lives and where they fly out of.
AD
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This seniority thing is complex beyond belief IMO.
Thanks to you and the other pilots for a glimpse behind the scenes on this aspect of your lives.
First, let me say that your name Cholula is the name of the stuff that's essential to a properly maintained "crew meal repair kit". It, or some version thereof, resides in vast quantities in my, and many other, flight chart kits. Why do you think those things are so heavy-looking, hanging off the back of our suitcases?!
Seniority is a form of currency for us, within fleet/seat/domicile, among all pilots, and among all employees for non-reving, except management trumps everyone in that regard. You start out with zero unless there was someone in your new hire class with a higher last 4 digits of their SSN. With nothing, you get what's left after everyone else takes their choice. For me, it was a 727, flight engineer seat in Chicago, the absolutely most junior seat in the most junior airplane in the most junior base in the system. The 72 engineer was known, among other other things, as a "Plumber on a Three-Holer".
As I accrued seniority, I was able to hold the same seat in a more senior base, which was SFO, near my actual home. After a couple years, it was back to Chicago, but in the right seat of the most junior two-pilot airplane in the fleet, the 737-200, aka "Thunder-Guppy".
Next step, back to SFO on the Thunder Guppy for a few years. Now, up to this point, I'd been on reserve, or on call 24hrs a day for a 3 hour show, with 12 days off per month. I could have been a line holder with a known flight and trip schedule every month after a year or two as a Three-Holer Plumber, but traded some of my seniority to be based where I lived, but still be on reserve.
I became a line holder on the Thunder Guppy in SFO after 4 years. There were lots of new pilots, junior to me, to fly the stuff I'd flown, so now, I had some wiggle room.
After 5 years, I got a 757/767 copilot seat in SFO, because I waited a little and was able to bypass the dreaded commute to reserve in a crash pad in Chicago with 8 other guys in it. That, by the way, is not as much fun as it sounds, but it is a lot less fun than it sounds!
At the 6 year point, I hit A-Scale pay, and was finally making over 50 grand a year. Those first two were tight, and I actually qualified for food stamps the first two years.
Then came the MOVE. My wife wanted to move to Denver, the second most senior (as in Desirable) base in the system. At 9 years, I didn't have the seniority to be a 757/767 copilot in DEN, even though my buddy who got hired about when I did, was now a 737-300, then dubbed the "Yuppy Guppy" with all it's electronic screens and Flight Management Computer in the cockpit. So, I coulda moved to Denver, been based pretty much anywhere BUT DEN, and been a captain on the -300. But, no, I'd commuted enough (I foolishly thought to myself) and i was just gonna hang on the 75/76 until I could hold DEN.
Back them, before we lost, ahem...a lot of stuff in 2003, we were entitled to a paid move if, among other things, we bid another domicile and had paid penance at the old one and on the last airplane for enough time. I didn't have to bid to DEN, I could bid anywhere that was physically the same or more distance from SFO. So, here I was, commuting from SFO to my new base......Miami, for a few months while our new (and still my current residence) house was being finished, a mere 8 months over schedule, over twice the projected completion time. so, here I was, commuting SFO-DEN-MIA 5 times a month, to fly all-nighters to & from South America. I can say that the commute plus the flying took a year off my life for every trip I flew. I guess the proof will bear out when I croak a week after I retire, which is handy because my last nickel from UAL comes the last day I fly.
Well fast forward through a 6 month stint at ORD, then 6 Mo in DEN, then the siren song of a captain bid.....in SFO. At least I have relatives out there, but it was a year commuting. Mind you, with 10 years, I could have been pretty senior as a 747-400 F/O, or as a Guppy captain anywhere else.
Funny thing about DEN is that since there are no 747 or 777 crews based in DEN, there are some pilots who want to live here and have a ton of seniority, but want to fly the wide bodies, so they commute. Then there are the other senior dudes who choose to fly the 757/767 from DEN, and they're so senior that someone like me, with 23 years could be flying as a captain on any airplane UAL has from another base, but there are a ton of guys more senior to me who are hanging on the 757/767 here and making me relatively junior in the fleet/seat/domicile.
My aforementioned buddy of my seniority lived out in Wash, DC until a year ago, and was flying the 757/767 some plush trips out of IAD, a middle-of-the-pack domicile. High flight-time trips, (we get paid for flying, not flight planning, prep, pre-start or parking checklists) international flying, but wanted to move out to colorado, so he took the DEN bid, (the paid move is a thing of the past) moved here, and flew DEN trips for 2 months, then bid back to DC. Including the trips and the commute, he averages 3 days at home in Denver more than I do, and I drive 30 minutes to DEN airport; he commutes 7 hours from his house to IAD.
The DEN flying on the 757/767 is vastly different from almost any other 757/767 crew base. DEN has zero international flying, so all trips are mainland US, Hawaii, and Canada, which are all, for pay purposes, domestic flying. Hawaii is OK, but there's a nasty all-nighter at the end of each trip that leaves the islands at about 10 or 11 PM (think between 3 and 5 AM body-clock-time) and lands in DEN 7 hours later. The coolest thing about it is you can surf in Hawaii, fly all night, get home at 10 AM, drive up to the mountains, and snowboard all day. It's a novelty, not something you wanna do after every trip.
I'm not quite into the ranks of reserve in DEN, but I'm slipping that way as UAL lays off more pilots. I'll be there by winter, assuming UAL is here this winter. I expect I'll try to bump down to Airbus captain in DEN if I can so that I can have a little more control of my days off. Destinations on trips are less of a priority these days, because I bid for days off over the actual trips. As a 'Bus captain, I'll be more senior in the fleet/seat thus have more control of my days off.
So, your seniority buys you whatever you can afford. Some folks have commuted their whole career (or "current job", as we call it these days) to fly the biggest stuff out of the bases that have the best flying in their opinion. Some live near their crew base, and drive to work, flying relatively junior, lower-paying seat/fleet, but don't get on a plane to go to work.
This just scratches the surface of the seniority/fleet/seat/domicile/choice of trips thing. There are many nuances left unexplained. Perhaps AD will try to explain PBS, or Preferential bidding System? I'm wiped out, having worked my "other" job until midnight last night, then taking my wife to the airport at 5 AM for her 9 day SCUBA trip to Cancun (don't forget to write, Hon). That's her "other" job; she teaches and certifies disabled divers in a 'nice' setting when she isn't at her real job.
Freshairborne
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These are my own observations and/or opinions, and not necessarily those of the Air Line Pilots Association or UAL Corp.
Last edited by freshairborne; Jun 27, 09 at 7:49 am.
Could you elaborate on the "quality of flying that is in Denver" remark? What makes DEN such an undesirable base for some? Is it the equipment limitations? Altitude issues, combined with our such pleasant winds, especially this time of year? Or some other factor?
I'm always amazed at the number of crew I have, especially on international flights out of IAD, who commuted with me on my connector out of DEN. This conversation is helping me understand it a bit better.
Things sure have changed since my mother was a FA in the early 60s - back then (before FAs were allowed to be married... in the days of "coffee, tea or me") 6 months of seniority got you pretty much any route you wanted.
Somewhere, buried within my lengthy response to Cholula in my last post, is an explanation of the DEN flying and how it compares to the other bases.
6 months of seniority doesn't exist among United pilots. Our bottom-doggie, or 8-Ball, has about 8 years, and gets the dregs. Such is seniority, or juniority.
Freshairborne
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These are my own observations and/or opinions, and not necessarily those of the Air Line Pilots Association or UAL Corp.
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Posts: 10,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by freshairborne
......This just scratches the surface of the seniority/fleet/seat/domicile/choice of trips thing. There are many nuances left unexplained. Perhaps AD will try to explain PBS, or Preferential bidding System? I'm wiped out, having worked my "other" job until midnight last night, then taking my wife to the airport at 5 AM for her 9 day SCUBA trip to Cancun (don't forget to write, Hon). That's her "other" job; she teaches and certifies disabled divers in a 'nice' setting when she isn't at her real job.
Freshairborne
emphasis mine: yeah but i think you summed it up "pretty good"-thanks (and kudos to your wife for doing what she does as well . as a recreational diver for over 30 years, i think it's great that she gives the opportunity to those who would normally think something so beautiful is not open to them)
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just my humble opinion but i used to try and stop hockey pucks so what do i know . Nighthawks fans are everywhere
Thanks, Freshairborne for the detailed explanation of seniority, along with your experience - very interesting!
So, who (not his/her name) is #1? In other words, how many years does #1 have with UA and for how long is #1 actually there before the mandatory retirement age? What is this person flying?
I was flying PVG-SFO last week. While waiting for United's 858, I saw a BA plane (I think it was a 777) next to us. As it backed out, there was a device in the tail section that was opened. It looked very non-aerodynamic. After pushback, it was then closed. I could not figure out what this thing was. Anybody know?
to what my esteemed colleague says
. Nighthawks fans are everywhere
