Just wanted to add my appreciation to the pilots for answering all the questions. My family has very close ties to aviation, and that's partly why I enjoy being in my eighth year as being 1K.
I love chatting with deadheading pilots (if they're in the mood to chat, I respect if they give signs that they would just rather read or sleep).
One question/favor though to the pilots. Watch it when you walk across Quebec Street to get to the Doubletree Hotel, okay? Been a couple of you guys who have cut it close. I love interacting with pilots, but wouldn't want it to be for THAT reason.
Keep up the great work on this thread and in the cockpit.
Thanks to the pilots for answering our questions. I've got a few.
Can you give more info about how the bid system for flight preference works? I Googled, but maybe I didn't use the right keywords,
a. If a guy with a tiny bit more seniority than you wants, say, a specific Hawaii flight, does he automatically get it? Or can you somehow outbid him for that one if you are more willing to take one or more less-desirable flights to compensate? Do they ever "package" a good flight along with a bad one, or are they all individually bid?
b. If you were to forget to bid your flights for one period, does someone call or email to remind you? If somehow you don't bid, do you automatically get whatever bottom-of-the-barrel itineraries are left, or do you have some sort of fallback or minimum acceptable flights? If the latter, does this vary by seniority?
c. How similar is your bid system to that of AA, NW, WN, CO, etc. (if you know).
d. Is the bidding system publicly detailed anywhere?
e. Once flights are bid, can senior guys somehow "bump" more junior guys? If so, under what conditions (family emergency, they change their mind, etc.)?
f. After flights are bid, can you swap with another pilot if you mutually decide to, or does that screw up a whole bunch of plans down the line?
g. Suppose you know that a pilot just ahead of you in seniority wants a certain flight that you also want. Is there some way to secretly bribe him or negotiate and get him to alter his bidding, to your benefit?
h. Is the bidding secret? If you want to see what flights a specific pilot is taking, can you find out? Do they release a summary of "most (and least) bid-for flights"? If some route is considered really undesirable, does UA offer extra compensation if you'll take it?
i. Is the procedure "bidding" as in an auction where there's back-and-forth until nobody is willing to go any higher, or like ebay where whoever's highest at a specific future time "wins," or is it all done at one instant, like matching for medical residents (basically a big linear algebra problem)?
j. Any other insight into the bidding system you might have.
k. Also somewhat curious about the bidding for new aircraft training mentioned above by one pilot, but I think I've asked enough
Thanks. I'm an ebay guy, so bidding systems/quirks and game theory and such is fascinating to me.
Last edited by toomanybooks; Jan 6, 08 at 11:33 am.
Thanks to the pilots for answering our questions. I've got a few.
Can you give more info about how the bid system for flight preference works? I Googled, but maybe I didn't use the right keywords,
a. If a guy with a tiny bit more seniority than you wants, say, a specific Hawaii flight, does he automatically get it? Or can you somehow outbid him for that one if you are more willing to take one or more less-desirable flights to compensate? Do they ever "package" a good flight along with a bad one, or are they all individually bid?
b. If you were to forget to bid your flights for one period, does someone call or email to remind you? If somehow you don't bid, do you automatically get whatever bottom-of-the-barrel itineraries are left, or do you have some sort of fallback or minimum acceptable flights? If the latter, does this vary by seniority?
c. How similar is your bid system to that of AA, NW, WN, CO, etc. (if you know).
d. Is the bidding system publicly detailed anywhere?
e. Once flights are bid, can senior guys somehow "bump" more junior guys? If so, under what conditions (family emergency, they change their mind, etc.)?
f. After flights are bid, can you swap with another pilot if you mutually decide to, or does that screw up a whole bunch of plans down the line?
g. Suppose you know that a pilot just ahead of you in seniority wants a certain flight that you also want. Is there some way to secretly bribe him or negotiate and get him to alter his bidding, to your benefit?
h. Is the bidding secret? If you want to see what flights a specific pilot is taking, can you find out? Do they release a summary of "most (and least) bid-for flights"? If some route is considered really undesirable, does UA offer extra compensation if you'll take it?
i. Is the procedure "bidding" as in an auction where there's back-and-forth until nobody is willing to go any higher, or like ebay where whoever's highest at a specific future time "wins," or is it all done at one instant, like matching for medical residents (basically a big linear algebra problem)?
j. Any other insight into the bidding system you might have.
k. Also somewhat curious about the bidding for new aircraft training mentioned above by one pilot, but I think I've asked enough
Thanks. I'm an ebay guy, so bidding systems/quirks and game theory and such is fascinating to me.
At United it is a Preferential Bidding System that is based on seniority. Basically, to keep it simple, all the pilots put in their desires into the system during a week of the month for the next month's schedule. You can put various inputs in with point values, like you want weekends off for 500 points. You can desire layovers, trips, depart times, etc...pretty much a lot of things. But, the more you put in, the more you can negate some of your higher ticket items. PBS will then run and goes from senior pilot to junior pilot. Senior guy gets everything he wants, and the solver keeps going down to the junior guy, who pretty much gets whatever is left over and not really anything he put down in his bid. Thus, seniority is everything in the airline world.
Once you have a schedule, there is a trip trade system that comes open at the end of the month where you can post the trips you want to lose. You can also see open trips and trips other pilots want to lose. Then, you can put in requests to trade trips, drop trips, do pilot to pilot trips, and the system will try to accomodate you. It sounds good but in reality United keeps their staffing so ridiculously low, that it is hard to trade out of your trip into a different trip due to staffing issues. They don't want more open trips to fill with reserve pilots since we have understaffing of pilots (something United refuses to acknowledge).
No one calls to remind you to bid. There is a standard safety net bid that if you forgot to bid, it would use that net and basically give you a schedule based upon what the schedulers think a pilot would want.
No auction on trips, nothing like that. You put it out, and if someone wants the trip they will put in for it. That's pretty much the system. I give it a C grade myself.
1) Back when labor relations were good, the company liked the pilots sending back business cards to our FC passengers to thank them for their business. Now, because the company wants it, and the pilots are very unmotivated in doing any company business, they don't really do it anymore. It's not that we don't appreciate your business, it is more a lack of motivation to do it at this time.
That's a bummer. I've received a few over the years, from Pilots, Co-pilots and Pursers. It really does not matter to me who they come from, it's that little extra effort that I appreciate. It really sets the airline apart.
When you do the walk around before the flight, is there honestly anything that you can really see that is out of order?
It's just like renting a car...you want to make sure there are no dents/scratches from the previous guy that you could be liable for! Unless your company is nice enough to get the LDW coverage!
Can you elaborate a bit more on the bidding, I've always wondered what a "trip" in the bidding process includes. Is it this group of flights that means an overnight here/there, a specific routing you want to pilot or just the parameters home on x date, overnight in y location, etc.
Also when you are exchanging trips - if the above is a group of flights that comprise your in/out for the period, are you trading the entire thing or can if you end the schedule with ord-iad but want to stay in ORD, you can just trade out that last leg.
Thanks again - this has been very interesting.
BTW - there was a comment earlier about FT being a virtual forum and we don't know each other (i think it was in response to the salary questions) ... actually there is a vibrant community within FT or people who travel the world and meet in person. Threads about meetings are in the CommunityBuzz forum -- basically it can be a weekend mini-vacation or just a happy hour or dinner (e.g. on a biz trip, you're travelling alone but wouldn't mind company for dinner - you post the where, date, time and it's amazing the corners of the world where you'll find other FT'ers interested in meeting).
If any of you overnight in IAD sometime, please post I'm sure there will be takers or just drop by another even already scheduled. Would love to meet the folks behind the handles providing great info.
Programs: UA-1k, HH Silver, Giving Tootsie Pops to UA employees, & now a retired hockey goalie
Posts: 10,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Downunder girl
I am half way through this thread and its riveting . I will have some questions, but feel I need to read the whole (ever growing) thread first.
Thank you to the pilots taking the time to share their world with us .
My most favourite flying experience was in the 1980's (when I worked for Ansett), I was on a NRSA ticket and the plane was full - no F class for me. I was allowed to fly in the jump seat in the cockpit. WOW . That was amazing. I really enjoyed it. Only happened once but it was a memory I have never forgotten. I also was thrilled when I was able to take my (then) 2 yr old daughter up to the cockpit to see the plane during flight. I dont think she remembers, but she has experienced what now is not allowed.
I remember doing that as a little kid as well. Unfortunately post 9-11, no one can come up to the cockpit during flight anymore. Flying just isn't as exciting anymore from a passenger or pilot perspective anymore.
i'll echo the jump seat pleasure. for me (summer 2000) flying florence-cdg on an a/f ba146. short story as follows....
i went to use the fwd head and when i came out, the door to the flight deck was open and there was the captain flipping various switches which caused some of the warning horns to sound but no worries as he was trying to pacify little girl (maybe 4-5) who was crying. it was working but it also put a huge s.e. grin on my face. i asked the f/a (who was holding the little girl's hand) in my very bad french if it was ok if i took in the view for just a few moments and the captain turned and said "sure". so here i am getting a once in a lifetime experience and i start pointing to the instruments and mumbling their various name to myself.
the captain asks me if i'm a pilot and say only on a computer flight simulator and sadly, i missed my calling. we're chatting and i'm in heaven (pun inrtnded) when atc comes on and tells us to begin our initial descent so i thank the captain and f/o and am about to head back to my seat when the captain asks if i'd like to ride the jump seat for the remainder of the flight. would i? . so there i was, in the jump seat with head phones and had the flying thrill of my life.
__________________
just my humble opinion but i used to try and stop hockey pucks so what do i know . Nighthawks fans are everywhere
No auction on trips, nothing like that. You put it out, and if someone wants the trip they will put in for it. That's pretty much the system. I give it a C grade myself.[/QUOTE]
Excellent. A "C" grade. Perfect. Why? Because here's an opportunity to hear from waterfalls et al (All UA Pilots?) on how to make it better, that's why. As a UA pilot, what would you recommend be tweaked, adjusted, changed, altered, and-or deleted in order to make the auction system more efficient? How about fair? Also, does said bidding system need to be fair in order to be effective and widely endorsed? Take or leave the philosophical issue....in order to keep on topic.
Thanks again to the pilot contributions here both past and future.....and you have to know it's VERY comforting as loyal customers to know we have the best pilots of any carrier, domestic OR international, period.
Excellent. A "C" grade. Perfect. Why? Because here's an opportunity to hear from waterfalls et al (All UA Pilots?) on how to make it better, that's why. As a UA pilot, what would you recommend be tweaked, adjusted, changed, altered, and-or deleted in order to make the auction system more efficient? How about fair? Also, does said bidding system need to be fair in order to be effective and widely endorsed? Take or leave the philosophical issue....in order to keep on topic.
Thanks again to the pilot contributions here both past and future.....and you have to know it's VERY comforting as loyal customers to know we have the best pilots of any carrier, domestic OR international, period.
It needs to be fair in order to be endorsed. It needs to be open and allow pilots the ability to work their schedules with some flexibility. When you are gone 20 days a month, getting certain days off for family events becomes kind of important. It needs to be fair in that all the pilots work a fair amount and not just a certain segment of the pilots do most of the work. And it needs to be easy enough to use that you don't need a computer degree to understand it.
Programs: UA 1P (soon to be 1K) SPG Gold, Hertz 5*Gold
Posts: 200
DEN-PHL Flight Experience
Thanks to all the pilots who have taken the time to answer our questions!
My Question:
Last year I was on a flight from DEN-PHL aboard a 757, and on final, we started to encounter what I knew was a not so normal movement of the aircraft. From a passenger perspective (especially on the 757, since I've flown as a passenger a million times) I wasn't sure what was happening. Based on my flying experience, I think I'm pretty good at distinguishing between "normal" turbulence and "not normal" movement. We seemed to be rolling in an unstable manner, and losing altitude at a greater rate than expected on a final approach. The pilot was playing with the power setting quite a bit, yet we still seemed to be "stuck" in this awkward maneuver. Even with what seemed like a large boost of power to the engines, it was almost as if we couldn't gain "traction" and ascend. You could see that passengers were getting nervous, and not too long after this awkward rolling and descending situation, the aircraft suddenly seemed to respond to the power and aborted the landing. The pilot simply said later "we're going around"
My apologies for the amateur description of this approach, but it was perhaps one of the scariest experiences of my flying days. Once we landed, passengers were dead silent, and some were crying when we walked down the jetway. Almost everyone was commenting how bizarre the situation was, even a retired pilot that was sitting as a passenger. Can any of the pilots on this board explain what happened? (there was some speculation of wake turbulence)
Thanks to all the pilots who have taken the time to answer our questions!
My Question:
Last year I was on a flight from DEN-PHL aboard a 757, and on final, we started to encounter what I knew was a not so normal movement of the aircraft. From a passenger perspective (especially on the 757, since I've flown as a passenger a million times) I wasn't sure what was happening. Based on my flying experience, I think I'm pretty good at distinguishing between "normal" turbulence and "not normal" movement. We seemed to be rolling in an unstable manner, and losing altitude at a greater rate than expected on a final approach. The pilot was playing with the power setting quite a bit, yet we still seemed to be "stuck" in this awkward maneuver. Even with what seemed like a large boost of power to the engines, it was almost as if we couldn't gain "traction" and ascend. You could see that passengers were getting nervous, and not too long after this awkward rolling and descending situation, the aircraft suddenly seemed to respond to the power and aborted the landing. The pilot simply said later "we're going around"
My apologies for the amateur description of this approach, but it was perhaps one of the scariest experiences of my flying days. Once we landed, passengers were dead silent, and some were crying when we walked down the jetway. Almost everyone was commenting how bizarre the situation was, even a retired pilot that was sitting as a passenger. Can any of the pilots on this board explain what happened? (there was some speculation of wake turbulence)
That does sound like a wake turbulence encounter, but I'm only guessing since I wasn't there. If you had bad weather in the area, it could have been bad gusty winds or potential windshear as well. All I can do is speculate though. Sorry.
Programs: UA 1P (soon to be 1K) SPG Gold, Hertz 5*Gold
Posts: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumdriver
That does sound like a wake turbulence encounter, but I'm only guessing since I wasn't there. If you had bad weather in the area, it could have been bad gusty winds or potential windshear as well. All I can do is speculate though. Sorry.
It appeared to be a clear evening, possibly some wind though. Thanks for your thoughts, I've always wanted to know what happened that night- but didn't feel it was appropriate to ask the pilots once we landed. On that note, if it was indeed wake turbulence and a similar situation had occurred on your flight, would you have let the passengers know what had happened?
Easy question.. why do United pilots keep the seatbelt sign on until (usually) several minutes after reaching cruise altitude? I notice other airlines, particulary European airlines, where the sign goes off 5 minutes, or even less, after takeoff.
Been a couple of you guys who have cut it close. I love interacting with pilots, but wouldn't want it to be for THAT reason.
Unless your company is nice enough to get the LDW coverage! 
. I will have some questions, but feel I need to read the whole (ever growing) thread first. 
. That was amazing. I really enjoyed it. Only happened once but it was a memory I have never forgotten. I also was thrilled when I was able to take my (then) 2 yr old daughter up to the cockpit to see the plane during flight. I dont think she remembers, but she has experienced what now is not allowed.
