Award Ticket Fraud?
Feb 6, 2006, 8:37 pm
#61
Join Date: Jun 2004
Programs: united airlines
Posts: 4,967
Originally Posted by 777 global mile hound
My post is regarding travel and accident coverage only on Award travel and seeking coverage through Amex.Anyone can sue a carrier.But there are no guarantees that the family will get a nickle
To be clear every state and underwriter has a different policy with each CC The only thing I can tell you is that years ago I challenged American Express after what I thought was bogus conflicting information from their customer service.
I took it up to Executive Headquarters for further clarification and sure enough CS had been trying to sell me supplemental award travel insurance in the state of NY that has no coverage
It is available through Amex but only in certain states.
Last I was aware there was a fee to be covered.
Just paying the annual fee only gets you revenue ticket coverage
Many folks are sadly not informed on these topics
Diners Club (and I don't want to promote that Titanic Card program as of late) covers ALL Award travel even if the charge never bills on the card.
But I haven't checked as of late to see if that has changed.
A number of Visa and MC also have coverage.
Check with the Underwriter of the policy directly if this matters to you !
And be clear with your questions.And get it in writing!
To be clear every state and underwriter has a different policy with each CC The only thing I can tell you is that years ago I challenged American Express after what I thought was bogus conflicting information from their customer service.
I took it up to Executive Headquarters for further clarification and sure enough CS had been trying to sell me supplemental award travel insurance in the state of NY that has no coverage
It is available through Amex but only in certain states.
Last I was aware there was a fee to be covered.
Just paying the annual fee only gets you revenue ticket coverage
Many folks are sadly not informed on these topics
Diners Club (and I don't want to promote that Titanic Card program as of late) covers ALL Award travel even if the charge never bills on the card.
But I haven't checked as of late to see if that has changed.
A number of Visa and MC also have coverage.
Check with the Underwriter of the policy directly if this matters to you !
And be clear with your questions.And get it in writing!
Feb 6, 2006, 9:43 pm
#62
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Originally Posted by bailmart
I have given many awards before and have never had a problem.
Feb 6, 2006, 9:45 pm
#63
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Originally Posted by OttoGraham
If this was indeed a gift rather than a sale of miles, the answer is simple. Find a lawyer and sue.
Feb 6, 2006, 10:00 pm
#64
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by tom911
How do you establish a dollar value for that, being that the ticket has no value (and actually says $0 on it)?
Also, I don't think that it's fair to say that the ticket has "no value". It may not have a readily-determined dollar value, but people wouldn't be trying to sell them on eBay if they didn't have some value. Plus, for tax purposes, there is an agreed-upon valuation for frequent flier miles (don't know what it is off the top of my head), so that might be one reasonable way to at least establish some sort of basis for a dollar value.
Feb 7, 2006, 6:33 am
#65
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Originally Posted by tom911
How do you establish a dollar value for that, being that the ticket has no value (and actually says $0 on it)?
As for damages beyond this, it depends on the cause of action. In addition a finder of fact can set a value on the no-notice cancellation of a vacation, the humiliation of being falsely accused of mileage fraud, and deceptive business practices by United. Depending on the state law allegedly violated, there may be fixed statutory damages, punitive damages, and fee-shifting attorney fee provisions available as well.
Of course, in my mind the most important issue is the first one: "Was this a genuine gift of miles or a business transaction?" If the answer is anything other than genuine gift of miles, the best course of action is to slip away slowly and quietly.
Feb 7, 2006, 7:33 am
#66
Ambassador: World of Hyatt
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: San Diego,CA
Posts: 10,080
Originally Posted by itsme
What is one insuring, if they can get the coverage? Is it what the cost of the ticket would have been had it been a revenue one rather than an award ticket? And whether they can sell coverage to you or not depends on where you reside and they bill you (Maryland), where the flight (Virginia), or what? It would be your basic travel insurance, whatever that is, save for what would be an "imputed" value to the award tickets rather than one set by an actual purchase price for that itinerary and COS?
Regretfully I feel as I am intruding on the serious charges against United in the OPs thread.
PM me for further questions as I am not fully clear on your question(s)
What I would say in a nut shell is the Amex credit cards we all generally carry have some form of insurance written by the cards underwriters/insurers for revenue tickets only in every state where each of us resides.
This would be for if you were to die in crash and or be injured.
Funds that would go to you or your family.These are set amounts for each eye,leg,arm whatever is it you loose should you be involved in an accident.Or the funds would be paid out and distributed directly to your family should you not make it out alive.......
The amount of coverage is for purchased revenue tickets only and varies by how much you pay in premiums per flight or set amount travel award premium annually or what standard coverage is offered with the basic card.
None of this protection is covered for award travel in any state unless you specifically pay a premium for such coverage on free tickets which may only be requested through Amex
Some states are simply excluded from award travel insurance coverage completely......
Let the Flyer beware
Feb 7, 2006, 9:05 am
#67
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: EWR
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 489
I agree with it... and if the ticket really has no value UA would not be ambushing people in the airport...
Originally Posted by hockeyguy
It's not the dollar value of the ticket that matters; it's how much it cost the wrongly-inconvenienced traveler in terms of time, missed events or meetings, etc. If the person giving the award followed all of the program rules, it seems that they should be entitled to damages for any action on United's part that didn't follow the rules and caused problems for the passenger.
Also, I don't think that it's fair to say that the ticket has "no value". It may not have a readily-determined dollar value, but people wouldn't be trying to sell them on eBay if they didn't have some value. Plus, for tax purposes, there is an agreed-upon valuation for frequent flier miles (don't know what it is off the top of my head), so that might be one reasonable way to at least establish some sort of basis for a dollar value.
Also, I don't think that it's fair to say that the ticket has "no value". It may not have a readily-determined dollar value, but people wouldn't be trying to sell them on eBay if they didn't have some value. Plus, for tax purposes, there is an agreed-upon valuation for frequent flier miles (don't know what it is off the top of my head), so that might be one reasonable way to at least establish some sort of basis for a dollar value.
Feb 7, 2006, 11:52 pm
#68
Join Date: Jun 2004
Programs: united airlines
Posts: 4,967
Originally Posted by hockeyguy
It's not the dollar value of the ticket that matters; it's how much it cost the wrongly-inconvenienced traveler in terms of time, missed events or meetings, etc. If the person giving the award followed all of the program rules, it seems that they should be entitled to damages for any action on United's part that didn't follow the rules and caused problems for the passenger.
Also, I don't think that it's fair to say that the ticket has "no value". It may not have a readily-determined dollar value, but people wouldn't be trying to sell them on eBay if they didn't have some value. Plus, for tax purposes, there is an agreed-upon valuation for frequent flier miles (don't know what it is off the top of my head), so that might be one reasonable way to at least establish some sort of basis for a dollar value.
Also, I don't think that it's fair to say that the ticket has "no value". It may not have a readily-determined dollar value, but people wouldn't be trying to sell them on eBay if they didn't have some value. Plus, for tax purposes, there is an agreed-upon valuation for frequent flier miles (don't know what it is off the top of my head), so that might be one reasonable way to at least establish some sort of basis for a dollar value.
But why would one cite that as a basis for valuing the ticket, what such tickets are offered for on eBay, or any other "indirect" indicator, when all one has to do is look to the price that must be paid to purchase the seat from UA. Yes, there might be a question whether to set the price at the lowest economy fare or what an unrestricted seat sells for, but UA probably answered that with what it demanded in $s when it denied the woman boarding. And if UA were to be found legally liable for the cost of the ticket, then they would probably be liable for damages beyond the cost of the ticket for the further consequences of their breach.
Is the OP going to do anything about this, though?
Feb 7, 2006, 11:57 pm
#69
Join Date: Jun 2004
Programs: united airlines
Posts: 4,967
Originally Posted by OttoGraham
You can fixed value on the cost of a trans-Pacific business-class seat. That the company would say in boilerplate that it has no value is of no moment.
As for damages beyond this, it depends on the cause of action. In addition a finder of fact can set a value on the no-notice cancellation of a vacation, the humiliation of being falsely accused of mileage fraud, and deceptive business practices by United. Depending on the state law allegedly violated, there may be fixed statutory damages, punitive damages, and fee-shifting attorney fee provisions available as well.
Of course, in my mind the most important issue is the first one: "Was this a genuine gift of miles or a business transaction?" If the answer is anything other than genuine gift of miles, the best course of action is to slip away slowly and quietly.
As for damages beyond this, it depends on the cause of action. In addition a finder of fact can set a value on the no-notice cancellation of a vacation, the humiliation of being falsely accused of mileage fraud, and deceptive business practices by United. Depending on the state law allegedly violated, there may be fixed statutory damages, punitive damages, and fee-shifting attorney fee provisions available as well.
Of course, in my mind the most important issue is the first one: "Was this a genuine gift of miles or a business transaction?" If the answer is anything other than genuine gift of miles, the best course of action is to slip away slowly and quietly.
Feb 8, 2006, 7:14 am
#70
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Originally Posted by itsme
Whose burden do you think it is to prove "gift of miles or a business transaction"? I think it ought to be UA's, and therefore if OP pursues it, UA better have evidence that it was "a business transaction" rather than a "genuine gift of miles," not just surmise. If OP does not pursue it, then, of course, UA wins by default.
Feb 8, 2006, 7:46 am
#71
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by itsme
Whose burden do you think it is to prove "gift of miles or a business transaction"? I think it ought to be UA's, and therefore if OP pursues it, UA better have evidence that it was "a business transaction" rather than a "genuine gift of miles," not just surmise. If OP does not pursue it, then, of course, UA wins by default.
Feb 8, 2006, 8:24 am
#72
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Originally Posted by deckman
I think the OttoGraham is saying since we readers do not know in fact which is true, the OP must make a honest self-determination if it was a gift or not before pursuing it legally. The matter of proving (winning) it in court is an entirely different matter.
I would guess that they only do this based on a pattern of "gifts" and wouldn't flag an account with multiple tickets given to a single person (e.g. a partner or wife with different last name) or mutiple people with the same last name (e.g. my sister and her family).
As much as I agree with itsme that the burden of proof should be on MP to show that these were "business transactions" and not gifts, the reality is that MP runs the program and is taking a "guilty until proven innocent" stance on this.
Feb 8, 2006, 9:24 am
#73
Join Date: Nov 2000
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If it's true that it is criminal to give away miles to many different people and/or upgrades to people I've never met, I'd be in the pokey at least a couple of dozen times.
So, in the meantime, I think I'll just continue to give away what I'm not going to use. Sorry, UA! You can always accuse me/freeze my account/debase me, and ask questions later and all that. And then I'll just take my business and my (quite substantial) revenue elsewhere - no sweat, really, as I've heard terrific things about oneworld, anyway. It's so easy to switch from UA/LH/SQ/TG to AA/BA/CX!! It really is!!
Will
So, in the meantime, I think I'll just continue to give away what I'm not going to use. Sorry, UA! You can always accuse me/freeze my account/debase me, and ask questions later and all that. And then I'll just take my business and my (quite substantial) revenue elsewhere - no sweat, really, as I've heard terrific things about oneworld, anyway. It's so easy to switch from UA/LH/SQ/TG to AA/BA/CX!! It really is!!
Will
Feb 8, 2006, 9:34 am
#74
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Originally Posted by deckman
I think the OttoGraham is saying since we readers do not know in fact which is true, the OP must make a honest self-determination if it was a gift or not before pursuing it legally. The matter of proving (winning) it in court is an entirely different matter.
But also, in any court case, the plaintiff bears the burden of proving his case. If the OP were to sue, he should be prepared to prove that his ticket was given away as a gift, as well as be able to rebut any evidence UA might offer to show it was bartered/brokered/sold.
Feb 8, 2006, 9:40 am
#75
Join Date: Nov 2004
Programs: UAL
Posts: 4,746
Originally Posted by tom911
How do you establish a dollar value for that, being that the ticket has no value (and actually says $0 on it)?
1. Subpeona UA for all their records of how much they charged passengers who they said misused MP awards when UA forced them to buy a ticket. If the MP miles have zero value, UA wouldn't charge huge amounts of $$$ to issue an equivalent.
2. Subpeona UA for how much money changes hands between UA and MP when an award ticket is redeemed.
3. Calculate how much it would cost to purchase that many miles from MP.
If UA thought that MP miles have no value, UA woudn't charge anyone misusing them real $$$.
That $0 is meaningless.
Last edited by Sneezy; Feb 8, 2006 at 9:56 am Reason: I can't count to three. :-)