Hidden City Risk
#91
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PDX
Programs: UA 1K 1.14 MM ALASKA MVPG
Posts: 126
Look, the only reason hidden pricing exists is because the market is not working properly. Supply and demand are not being balanced appropriately either through regulation/collusion/monopoly. United has pricing power to ORD (and many other destinations) that does not correspond to the actual demand to fly to ORD -- meaning that the system is not operating as a real market. I think one could make a moral case that this alone justifies others to ignore their rules and that UA is the one being immoral and enforcing it through a set of CoCs that are creating in collusion with the other airlines, which I presume all restrict hidden city pricing.
If we want to live in a capitalistic society we need to have markets that are free. Customers exposing the lack of free markets are not immoral they are exerting a balancing force that will make carriers charge no more for service to a hub than service through the hub. I think it is fairly simple.
If we want to live in a capitalistic society we need to have markets that are free. Customers exposing the lack of free markets are not immoral they are exerting a balancing force that will make carriers charge no more for service to a hub than service through the hub. I think it is fairly simple.
#92
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Too many
Programs: Lots
Posts: 5,760
If UA wants to compete on price in the LAX-MKE market without harming its margins in the LAX-ORD market, then UA should fly LAX-MKE nonstop. There is nothing immoral about buying a ticket LAX-ORD-MKE and using only the LAX-ORD segment. Morality is not defined by the artificial constructs created by corporations to maximize profit or by whether a court would choose to enforce such rules.
#93
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PHL & (gasp) AVP (NEPA)
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 787
Morality/ethics aside, on all of my ticket purchases I have not seen anything where I can be charged for not using a segment.
I assume this is the stuff like "NONREF-0VALUAFTDPT-CHGFEE -REFUNDABLE-CXLFEE-CHGFEE"...
Section 9, Contract terms:
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publicati...s.htm#contract
I assume this is the stuff like "NONREF-0VALUAFTDPT-CHGFEE -REFUNDABLE-CXLFEE-CHGFEE"...
Section 9, Contract terms:
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publicati...s.htm#contract
There are additional notice requirements for contract terms that affect your air fare. Airlines must provide a conspicuous written notice on or with the ticket concerning any "incorporated" contract terms that restrict refunds, impose monetary penalties, or permit the airline to raise the price after you've bought the ticket.
If an airline incorporates contract terms by reference and fails to provide the required notice about a particular rule, the passenger will not be bound by that rule.
If an airline incorporates contract terms by reference and fails to provide the required notice about a particular rule, the passenger will not be bound by that rule.
#94
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,684
Morality/ethics aside, on all of my ticket purchases I have not seen anything where I can be charged for not using a segment.
I assume this is the stuff like "NONREF-0VALUAFTDPT-CHGFEE -REFUNDABLE-CXLFEE-CHGFEE"...
Section 9, Contract terms:
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publicati...s.htm#contract
I assume this is the stuff like "NONREF-0VALUAFTDPT-CHGFEE -REFUNDABLE-CXLFEE-CHGFEE"...
Section 9, Contract terms:
http://airconsumer.dot.gov/publicati...s.htm#contract
Umm, I believe the ticket itself says "Origin LAX, Destination, MKE." If that isn't obvious enough, I don't know what else is required Just casue it's called hidden city, doesn't mean they hide the destination on the ticket.
#95
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2000
Location: TPA for now. Hopefully LIS for retirement
Posts: 13,634
By not showing up with no notice, UA would assume those seats were taken and would not sell them to someone else (aside from whatever their overbooking algorithms might permit).
#96
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,684
Sure it can. UA would have lost the opportunity to sell the ORD-MKE and MKE-ORD seats at a higher fare than what the OP paid for those segments.
By not showing up with no notice, UA would assume those seats were taken and would not sell them to someone else (aside from whatever their overbooking algorithms might permit).
By not showing up with no notice, UA would assume those seats were taken and would not sell them to someone else (aside from whatever their overbooking algorithms might permit).
Of course on irrop days, there are people who want those seats, yet can't be confirmed because they have been booked by someone who has no intention of showing up, as he has already taken the blue line to his Chicago address. Some of these people then take the buss to MKE, which is not their 1st choice, but would rather be confirmed on a flight that eventually goes out with open seats.
#97
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 4,948
To fastair
Hey fastair,
I have never used the hidden city trick because I always have to carry over 200 lbs of baggage for my business (which is one of great perks of being *Gold), but I do book open jawed itineraries to Asia because of United stopover rules and then fill in the gap, with either an award flight or another purchased nested itinerary, and cancel the final segment. Sometimes I can pick-up the orphan segment at a later date because I am in Asia a lot but sometimes I throw it away. I have been doing this for about 15 years now in Asia and it always saves me at least $1,000- per trip (I value FF miles at 2 cents when I use awards). This trick I found on my own in the 1990's and only recently, after I joined FT, did I see that lots of other people here do the exact same thing.
Is this technically not permitted? The reason I ask is that, back in the days when I booked all of my international travel on the phone with the Premier Exec desk, I used to tell the agents exactly what I was doing and they would help construct the itineraries, so I assumed that it was perfectly fine. But, reading some of these threads since I have joined FT, makes me think that UA may not consider this kosher either.
I have never used the hidden city trick because I always have to carry over 200 lbs of baggage for my business (which is one of great perks of being *Gold), but I do book open jawed itineraries to Asia because of United stopover rules and then fill in the gap, with either an award flight or another purchased nested itinerary, and cancel the final segment. Sometimes I can pick-up the orphan segment at a later date because I am in Asia a lot but sometimes I throw it away. I have been doing this for about 15 years now in Asia and it always saves me at least $1,000- per trip (I value FF miles at 2 cents when I use awards). This trick I found on my own in the 1990's and only recently, after I joined FT, did I see that lots of other people here do the exact same thing.
Is this technically not permitted? The reason I ask is that, back in the days when I booked all of my international travel on the phone with the Premier Exec desk, I used to tell the agents exactly what I was doing and they would help construct the itineraries, so I assumed that it was perfectly fine. But, reading some of these threads since I have joined FT, makes me think that UA may not consider this kosher either.
#98
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco
Programs: All-Around Kettle
Posts: 3,286
Hey fastair,
I have never used the hidden city trick because I always have to carry over 200 lbs of baggage for my business (which is one of great perks of being *Gold), but I do book open jawed itineraries to Asia because of United stopover rules and then fill in the gap, with either an award flight or another purchased nested itinerary, and cancel the final segment. Sometimes I can pick-up the orphan segment at a later date because I am in Asia a lot but sometimes I throw it away. I have been doing this for about 15 years now in Asia and it always saves me at least $1,000- per trip (I value FF miles at 2 cents when I use awards). This trick I found on my own in the 1990's and only recently, after I joined FT, did I see that lots of other people here do the exact same thing.
Is this technically not permitted? The reason I ask is that, back in the days when I booked all of my international travel on the phone with the Premier Exec desk, I used to tell the agents exactly what I was doing and they would help construct the itineraries, so I assumed that it was perfectly fine. But, reading some of these threads since I have joined FT, makes me think that UA may not consider this kosher either.
I have never used the hidden city trick because I always have to carry over 200 lbs of baggage for my business (which is one of great perks of being *Gold), but I do book open jawed itineraries to Asia because of United stopover rules and then fill in the gap, with either an award flight or another purchased nested itinerary, and cancel the final segment. Sometimes I can pick-up the orphan segment at a later date because I am in Asia a lot but sometimes I throw it away. I have been doing this for about 15 years now in Asia and it always saves me at least $1,000- per trip (I value FF miles at 2 cents when I use awards). This trick I found on my own in the 1990's and only recently, after I joined FT, did I see that lots of other people here do the exact same thing.
Is this technically not permitted? The reason I ask is that, back in the days when I booked all of my international travel on the phone with the Premier Exec desk, I used to tell the agents exactly what I was doing and they would help construct the itineraries, so I assumed that it was perfectly fine. But, reading some of these threads since I have joined FT, makes me think that UA may not consider this kosher either.
#99
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,649
How about you find the cheapest itin that you plan on using as you purchased. I mean UA plans to fulfill their end of the agreement, why don't you? The train suggestion works. Honesty and honor should be wroth something to you, or if you are not concerned with what is ethical, then the open jaw seems to be popular, but I don't advocate dishonesty....that is, unless you feel that you should also be defrauded whenever possible, at which point, what goes around comes around in the world of karma.
I agree with this. Please let me know when I can charge UA $150 every time they cancel or change my flight. After all, that's what they charge me when I do the same!
There are no ethical issues with not flying segments paid for (notwithstanding that the airlines represent some of the worst examples of honest and ethical behavior).
There are no ethical issues with not flying segments paid for (notwithstanding that the airlines represent some of the worst examples of honest and ethical behavior).
I have been involved in many debates about hidden-city ticketing, too, and agree that a passenger is ethically, as well as legally, obligated to fulfill his end of the contract with the airline. Moreover, I believe that it's in all of our interest to do so because undermining airlines' pricing structures may well lead to even more customer-unfriendly tweaks in the future.
#100
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: What I write is my opinion alone..don't read into it anything not written.
Posts: 9,684
"Most expensive way" are my words not his and applied to this specific situation only--they wouldn't let him make his own deal with UA.
This happened last year, so maybe times have changed. However,
government widely touts the savings they are making across the budget to keep the taxpayers happy, count me as a skeptic who has seen enough both inside and outside to make me believe that this is not true.
Sorry, after seeing as much as I have, I just don't have the rosy view of government that you do.
This happened last year, so maybe times have changed. However,
government widely touts the savings they are making across the budget to keep the taxpayers happy, count me as a skeptic who has seen enough both inside and outside to make me believe that this is not true.
Sorry, after seeing as much as I have, I just don't have the rosy view of government that you do.
"B.20 PRICE REDUCTION
If, after award, the Contract carrier offers an unrestricted coach fare available to the general public that is lower than the contract fare, the contract carrier shall provide the lower fare to Government travelers in lieu of the contract fare.
If, after award, the contract carrier offers a commercial fare, other than an unrestricted coach fare, that is lower than the contract fare, the traveler can request, and the contract carrier shall provide, the lower fare in lieu of the contract fare, if the traveler qualifies for the lower fare and space is available at the time of booking. "
" AUDITS BY GSA’S TRANSPORTATION AUDIT DIVISION
1. Contract fares. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the lowest fully refundable coach fare charged is greater than the contract fare, provided payment was made through a GTR, contractor-issued travel card, or centrally billed account.
2. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the fare charged is greater than any unrestricted lowest fully refundable coach fare offered by the contract carrier to the general public that is lower than the contract fare. In such cases, audits will be limited to the effective date(s) of any such lower fares."
Kinda what I said earlier. Had he qualified (not made a deal) but qualified for a lower fare, he could have used it. That would mean advance purchase, ticketing, booking class, roundtrip if necessary...Even though this language is being quoted for the FY 2011 contract, the same language is/has been standard for years.
#101
Join Date: Oct 2009
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton ♦ , Hyatt Carbonado, Wyndham ♦, Marriott PE, "Stinking Bum" elsewhere.
Posts: 4,948
Hey Zombie, I had some down time, so found this for ya, straight from the FY 2011 final version of the city pair contract:
"B.20 PRICE REDUCTION
If, after award, the Contract carrier offers an unrestricted coach fare available to the general public that is lower than the contract fare, the contract carrier shall provide the lower fare to Government travelers in lieu of the contract fare.
If, after award, the contract carrier offers a commercial fare, other than an unrestricted coach fare, that is lower than the contract fare, the traveler can request, and the contract carrier shall provide, the lower fare in lieu of the contract fare, if the traveler qualifies for the lower fare and space is available at the time of booking. "
" AUDITS BY GSA’S TRANSPORTATION AUDIT DIVISION
1. Contract fares. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the lowest fully refundable coach fare charged is greater than the contract fare, provided payment was made through a GTR, contractor-issued travel card, or centrally billed account.
2. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the fare charged is greater than any unrestricted lowest fully refundable coach fare offered by the contract carrier to the general public that is lower than the contract fare. In such cases, audits will be limited to the effective date(s) of any such lower fares."
Kinda what I said earlier. Had he qualified (not made a deal) but qualified for a lower fare, he could have used it. That would mean advance purchase, ticketing, booking class, roundtrip if necessary...Even though this language is being quoted for the FY 2011 contract, the same language is/has been standard for years.
"B.20 PRICE REDUCTION
If, after award, the Contract carrier offers an unrestricted coach fare available to the general public that is lower than the contract fare, the contract carrier shall provide the lower fare to Government travelers in lieu of the contract fare.
If, after award, the contract carrier offers a commercial fare, other than an unrestricted coach fare, that is lower than the contract fare, the traveler can request, and the contract carrier shall provide, the lower fare in lieu of the contract fare, if the traveler qualifies for the lower fare and space is available at the time of booking. "
" AUDITS BY GSA’S TRANSPORTATION AUDIT DIVISION
1. Contract fares. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the lowest fully refundable coach fare charged is greater than the contract fare, provided payment was made through a GTR, contractor-issued travel card, or centrally billed account.
2. The Government reserves the right to issue overcharges whenever the fare charged is greater than any unrestricted lowest fully refundable coach fare offered by the contract carrier to the general public that is lower than the contract fare. In such cases, audits will be limited to the effective date(s) of any such lower fares."
Kinda what I said earlier. Had he qualified (not made a deal) but qualified for a lower fare, he could have used it. That would mean advance purchase, ticketing, booking class, roundtrip if necessary...Even though this language is being quoted for the FY 2011 contract, the same language is/has been standard for years.
#102
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K/MM, AA GLD
Posts: 1,706
I was perusing the August 19, 2010 version of the contract of carriage and noticed that hidden city ticketing is now explicitly prohibited:
http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf
Page 14, Tickets, section C.1
And UA now explicitly allows deleting miles from the FF account or revoking elite status.
http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf
FARES APPLY FOR TRAVEL ONLY BETWEEN THE POINTS FOR WHICH THEY
ARE PUBLISHED. TICKETS MAY NOT BE PURCHASED AND USED AT FARE(S) FROM AN
INITIAL DEPARTURE POINT ON THE TICKET WHICH IS BEFORE THE PASSENGER’S
ACTUAL POINT OF ORIGIN OF TRAVEL, OR TO A MORE DISTANT POINT(S) THAN
THE PASSENGER’S ACTUAL DESTINATION BEING TRAVELED EVEN WHEN THE
PURCHASE AND USE OF SUCH TICKETS WOULD PRODUCE A LOWER FARE. THIS
PRACTICE IS KNOWN AS “HIDDEN CITIES TICKETING” OR “POINT BEYOND
TICKETING” AND IS PROHIBITED BY UA.
ARE PUBLISHED. TICKETS MAY NOT BE PURCHASED AND USED AT FARE(S) FROM AN
INITIAL DEPARTURE POINT ON THE TICKET WHICH IS BEFORE THE PASSENGER’S
ACTUAL POINT OF ORIGIN OF TRAVEL, OR TO A MORE DISTANT POINT(S) THAN
THE PASSENGER’S ACTUAL DESTINATION BEING TRAVELED EVEN WHEN THE
PURCHASE AND USE OF SUCH TICKETS WOULD PRODUCE A LOWER FARE. THIS
PRACTICE IS KNOWN AS “HIDDEN CITIES TICKETING” OR “POINT BEYOND
TICKETING” AND IS PROHIBITED BY UA.
And UA now explicitly allows deleting miles from the FF account or revoking elite status.
#103
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco
Programs: All-Around Kettle
Posts: 3,286
I was perusing the August 19, 2010 version of the contract of carriage and noticed that hidden city ticketing is now explicitly prohibited:
http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf
Page 14, Tickets, section C.1
http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf
Page 14, Tickets, section C.1
#104
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: SFO
Programs: UA 1K/MM, AA GLD
Posts: 1,706
Interesting. Though, FWIW, this prohibition was previously in the CoC. It just wasn't expressly called "hidden cities ticketing." See post 69.
#105
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Francisco
Programs: All-Around Kettle
Posts: 3,286
I wonder if United plans to take a harder look at passengers who use hidden-city ticketing. I would think one would have to be a very frequent offender to be noticed.