Boeing, United Airlines Announce Order for 100 737 MAX 10s and 4 777 300ERs
Jun 20, 2017, 1:16 pm
#31
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This is curious in the context of comparing the UA 737 MAX 10 order with the DL A321, as Delta is continuing to order the 'ceo' (current engine) model of the 321 while the UA order is for a new variant with more advanced engine technology.
Conventional wisdom would suggest the prior generation product would cost less to acquire than a next-gen model, considering that the MAX 10 is designed to compete with the 321neo.
Right... I guess my point is more that the -10 is more capable than -900ER...
Conventional wisdom would suggest the prior generation product would cost less to acquire than a next-gen model, considering that the MAX 10 is designed to compete with the 321neo.
Jun 20, 2017, 1:22 pm
#32
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Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
And while United is going with seats on the 772/77W that are .6" narrower per person than a 737, Delta is staying 3-3-3 on the 777, and is getting a fleet of Airbus with wider seats.
In a few years, on nearly every flight (the remaining 763/764, and the few airbus A319/320 with what we can all agree are the worst seats of any airline, being the exception) you will get a seat that gives you either 19.4" of width per person (the 772/77w) or 19.8"-20" per person (the 787, 737, and few remaining 757s) on United.
On delta you will get a wider seat: 21.1"-21.3" per seat (the A320/321s/763/777), 20.8in per seat (the A332/333/33neo), or 20.3" (the A350) on about 4/5 of Delta's fleet than what UA is offering.
The unmistakable truth is that Delta is very intentionally going with aircraft that are going to be more comfortable for passengers, and its part of a fleet strategy. People who can select what airline to fly will be able to take that extra about 1" per seat of width, and the better experience into account when comparing Delta to United.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:00 pm Reason: Quote updated to reflect Moderator edit
Jun 20, 2017, 1:24 pm
#33
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Jun 20, 2017, 2:13 pm
#34
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The reality check is that Delta still flies 757 and a few 767s domestically (I get them all the time @sfo) and has 21 A321s already (which blow away anything UA is flying domestically in comfort) and had another 121 coming. All of these planes are more comfortable than anything United is flying.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
And while United is going with seats on the 772/77W that are .6" narrower per person than a 737, Delta is staying 3-3-3 on the 777, and is getting a fleet of Airbus with wider seats.
In a few years, on nearly every flight (the remaining 763/764, and the few airbus A319/320 with what we can all agree are the worst seats of any airline, being the exception) you will get a seat that gives you either 19.4" of width per person (the 772/77w) or 19.8"-20" per person (the 787, 737, and few remaining 757s) on United.
On delta you will get a wider seat: 21.1"-21.3" per seat (the A320/321s/763/777), 20.8in per seat (the A332/333/33neo), or 20.3" (the A350) on about 4/5 of Delta's fleet than what UA is offering.
The unmistakable truth is that Delta is very intentionally going with aircraft that are going to be more comfortable for passengers, and its part of a fleet strategy. People who can select what airline to fly will be able to take that extra about 1" per seat of width, and the better experience into account when comparing Delta to United.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
And while United is going with seats on the 772/77W that are .6" narrower per person than a 737, Delta is staying 3-3-3 on the 777, and is getting a fleet of Airbus with wider seats.
In a few years, on nearly every flight (the remaining 763/764, and the few airbus A319/320 with what we can all agree are the worst seats of any airline, being the exception) you will get a seat that gives you either 19.4" of width per person (the 772/77w) or 19.8"-20" per person (the 787, 737, and few remaining 757s) on United.
On delta you will get a wider seat: 21.1"-21.3" per seat (the A320/321s/763/777), 20.8in per seat (the A332/333/33neo), or 20.3" (the A350) on about 4/5 of Delta's fleet than what UA is offering.
The unmistakable truth is that Delta is very intentionally going with aircraft that are going to be more comfortable for passengers, and its part of a fleet strategy. People who can select what airline to fly will be able to take that extra about 1" per seat of width, and the better experience into account when comparing Delta to United.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:04 pm Reason: Unneeded comment removed
Jun 20, 2017, 3:20 pm
#35
Join Date: May 2013
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The reality check is that Delta still flies 757 and a few 767s domestically (I get them all the time @sfo) and has 21 A321s already (which blow away anything UA is flying domestically in comfort) and had another 121 coming. All of these planes are more comfortable than anything United is flying.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
Aircraft are a significant long-term investment and an airline will order the product that works best for them. The economics and performance are not consistent from airline to airline and it is ignorant to try and make blanket comparisons.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jun 20, 2017 at 5:03 pm Reason: response to deleted comment removed
Jun 20, 2017, 3:24 pm
#36
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I think that will depend on the seats they choose. The A321 is the same long thin metal tube, and buying the slightly wider fuselage does not guaranteed UA will put in wider seats - to the contrary, they are likely to test and certify the same 17" wide seats that go into the 737/787/773 for any A321 order.
Jun 20, 2017, 3:26 pm
#37
Join Date: Dec 2011
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The reality check is that Delta still flies 757 and a few 767s domestically (I get them all the time @sfo) and has 21 A321s already (which blow away anything UA is flying domestically in comfort) and had another 121 coming. All of these planes are more comfortable than anything United is flying.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
And while United is going with seats on the 772/77W that are .6" narrower per person than a 737, Delta is staying 3-3-3 on the 777, and is getting a fleet of Airbus with wider seats.
In a few years, on nearly every flight (the remaining 763/764, and the few airbus A319/320 with what we can all agree are the worst seats of any airline, being the exception) you will get a seat that gives you either 19.4" of width per person (the 772/77w) or 19.8"-20" per person (the 787, 737, and few remaining 757s) on United.
On delta you will get a wider seat: 21.1"-21.3" per seat (the A320/321s/763/777), 20.8in per seat (the A332/333/33neo), or 20.3" (the A350) on about 4/5 of Delta's fleet than what UA is offering.
The unmistakable truth is that Delta is very intentionally going with aircraft that are going to be more comfortable for passengers, and its part of a fleet strategy. People who can select what airline to fly will be able to take that extra about 1" per seat of width, and the better experience into account when comparing Delta to United.
Yes, Delta has 79 737-900ERs, and another 51 on order, but this is a fraction of what United has, and are old orders.
And while United is going with seats on the 772/77W that are .6" narrower per person than a 737, Delta is staying 3-3-3 on the 777, and is getting a fleet of Airbus with wider seats.
In a few years, on nearly every flight (the remaining 763/764, and the few airbus A319/320 with what we can all agree are the worst seats of any airline, being the exception) you will get a seat that gives you either 19.4" of width per person (the 772/77w) or 19.8"-20" per person (the 787, 737, and few remaining 757s) on United.
On delta you will get a wider seat: 21.1"-21.3" per seat (the A320/321s/763/777), 20.8in per seat (the A332/333/33neo), or 20.3" (the A350) on about 4/5 of Delta's fleet than what UA is offering.
The unmistakable truth is that Delta is very intentionally going with aircraft that are going to be more comfortable for passengers, and its part of a fleet strategy. People who can select what airline to fly will be able to take that extra about 1" per seat of width, and the better experience into account when comparing Delta to United.
Jun 20, 2017, 3:31 pm
#38
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Jun 20, 2017, 3:47 pm
#39
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They will order the product that they believe works best for them. Not every purchase decision proves to be correct over time. Some are even reversed before delivery, e.g. 2016 UA 737-700 order that was converted about six months later to other types (FT thread).
Jun 20, 2017, 4:16 pm
#40
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In the context of this thread, I don't know if UA's decision to buy narrower Boeing jets over slightly wider Airbus aircraft will proven to be wrong. I have flown on the 737 in coach often enough that I know that I can "survive" a transcon without permanent bodily harm, and that my body isn't particularly fond of the slightly wider Airbus narrow-bodies either if I spend 5 hrs in a coach seat. I have trip on a AS 737 to Hawaii coming up, with one direction likely in coach.
My greater concern, though, is the wide-body long-haul situation. There I am absolutely going to book away from 10-across 777s and 9-across 787s. My money, my decision. Fortunately my MM status has enabled me to broaden my carrier choice as status chasing is no longer a factor in my purchase decisions. Hopefully for UA they can find someone else who is younger/poorer or still chasing status to fill my seat
Jun 20, 2017, 4:24 pm
#41
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I have no idea what you are talking about with "tiny bins" and "tight pitch" and "horrible lavs" The bins are all high capacity pivot bins, the seats have the same pitch as what UA offers (Delta is 34"/31" and UA is 34"/30-31"). The first class lav is much better than those on the 737. Complaints have been about the rear lavs. Have you even flown the plane? I suspect not. Some photos are here:
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/n...-a321s.html#g7
The reality check is that the only F seat more pathetic than DL's new 199 seat config 757 is their 739 product. Absolutely the worst cabins and seats in N America. They are both worse than anything in UA's inventory. I would rather sit in Spirit's big front seat than a DL 739 up front. I also had the pleasure recently of traveling in one of the domestic 76's out of SFO you speak so highly of. The condition of it looked like it had been shot down and captured from the Soviets.
Any 763 F seat is more narrow, but I'll take that trade off for the widebody.
They will order the product that they believe works best for them. Not every purchase decision proves to be correct over time. Some are even reversed before delivery, e.g. 2016 UA 737-700 order that was converted about six months later to other types (FT thread).
Jun 20, 2017, 4:39 pm
#42
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
A penny is 3/4" wide, so incorrect analogy; the personal space/per person on a a321 is 1" larger/person in Y, so a wider, more open feel and seats that are 1" wider in Y, and a 6" wider aisle in F are the results.
I have no idea what you are talking about with "tiny bins" and "tight pitch" and "horrible lavs" The bins are all high capacity pivot bins, the seats have the same pitch as what UA offers (Delta is 34"/31" and UA is 34"/30-31"). The first class lav is much better than those on the 737. Complaints have been about the rear lavs. Have you even flown the plane? I suspect not. Some photos are here:
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/n...-a321s.html#g7
I have no idea what you are talking about with "tiny bins" and "tight pitch" and "horrible lavs" The bins are all high capacity pivot bins, the seats have the same pitch as what UA offers (Delta is 34"/31" and UA is 34"/30-31"). The first class lav is much better than those on the 737. Complaints have been about the rear lavs. Have you even flown the plane? I suspect not. Some photos are here:
http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/n...-a321s.html#g7
What is a fact is that I can fit my roller bag in length wise on a 737 bin, but not on Delta's A321 bin.
Another fact: aisles in the A321 are not 6" wider than the 737.
Jun 20, 2017, 5:26 pm
#43
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Jun 20, 2017, 6:02 pm
#44
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God, I hate 737's. HATE them! At least, the way UA/CO use them. Awful first class cabins. Narrow seats on Y. Why, oh why could they not have ordered Airbus??? I shiver that the thought of cross country in a 737.
Jun 20, 2017, 6:09 pm
#45
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Give me a 737 over UAs beat up 757s any day. If the 757s were new as well, then we'd have a different decision.
I don't know if its just me but the 757s have this horrible smell of wet old carpet as soon as you start walking to them in the jetbridge (could also just be LAX jet bridges...but I don't think so), combined with blue juice smell from the bathrooms. UGH. Nasty.
I don't know if its just me but the 757s have this horrible smell of wet old carpet as soon as you start walking to them in the jetbridge (could also just be LAX jet bridges...but I don't think so), combined with blue juice smell from the bathrooms. UGH. Nasty.