Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > United Airlines | MileagePlus
Reload this Page >

United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}

United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}

Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:34 am
  #31  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 502
Originally Posted by iflyalexair
It takes 19 minutes on the LIRR from Jamaica Airtrain Station to Penn Station. It's only a few dollars more than the E train.

Part of the difficulty with EWR, as others have mentioned, is if you are not going to take public transit. EWR originating cabs to the city aren't cheap with the trans-Hudson tolls. I live in Brooklyn, and I avoid EWR like the plague. A cab or car service easily runs $80-100, plus the concerns of tunnel traffic make it a risky option. Also, the train connections aren't particularly convenient unless you're going to Penn Station or willing to hop on the PATH to downtown. For me to get to Brooklyn by train from EWR is: Airtrain to NJ Transit to Midtown and a long subway ride to BK or Airtrain to NJ Transit to PATH to shorter subway ride. JFK to Brooklyn is a $35 car service.
This is key. Lots of HVF are based in Lower Manhattan for work, but live in UES, Brooklyn, Queens etc. When I used to stay in the UES, JFK was much much easier to get to. Plus, the terminal set up in JFK was a breeze compared to EWR.
smxflyer is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:36 am
  #32  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: AAdvantage Executive Platinum, Delta Silver Medallion, Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador
Posts: 14,017
Originally Posted by iflyalexair
It takes 19 minutes on the LIRR from Jamaica Airtrain Station to Penn Station. It's only a few dollars more than the E train.

Part of the difficulty with EWR, as others have mentioned, is if you are not going to take public transit. EWR originating cabs to the city aren't cheap with the trans-Hudson tolls. I live in Brooklyn, and I avoid EWR like the plague. A cab or car service easily runs $80-100, plus the concerns of tunnel traffic make it a risky option. Also, the train connections aren't particularly convenient unless you're going to Penn Station or willing to hop on the PATH to downtown. For me to get to Brooklyn by train from EWR is: Airtrain to NJ Transit to Midtown and a long subway ride to BK or Airtrain to NJ Transit to PATH to shorter subway ride. JFK to Brooklyn is a $35 car service.
I live on the UWS, and the last time I flew into EWR, the cab ride home cost me $120, plus tip. Steep, you say? I agree. But the cab driver insisted that was the price. I was absolutely exhausted, after a day of weather delays that had turned what should have been a couple of short hops (FLL-CLT-EWR) into a day-long nightmare. Add to that the fact that I had developed a migraine and I was further muddled. So I gave him the $120, and gave him a tip on top of that. Later on, I realized he had included his tip as part of the $120, so I tipped twice. I felt like a fool, but as I had a headache that was not fully under control and was nauseated from the migraine, I was not in a position to beat myself up too much.
ysolde is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:37 am
  #33  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: London & Sonoma CA
Programs: UA 1K, MM *G for life, BAEC Gold
Posts: 10,215
Originally Posted by smxflyer
Likely because the barrier to re-entry is too high. They would need to buy slots again, re-allocate fleet, crew base, terminal space, etc. Don't be surprised if UA if back at JFK at some point.
This is exactly the point. They sold the slots too cheap (at least in cash terms - you could argue that the real value was to be connected with tieing up EWR) and the price has gone up since then. However asset prices go up and go down - my guess is that they will wait for a dip in prices (someone else pulling out, perhaps) and buy in again.
lhrsfo is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:38 am
  #34  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
Originally Posted by smxflyer
Likely because the barrier to re-entry is too high. They would need to buy slots again, re-allocate fleet, crew base, terminal space, etc. Don't be surprised if UA if back at JFK at some point.
Like I said. If that's the reason why a return isn't worth it, which is reasonable, that means JFK was a marginal operation at best on the overall bottom line. That makes his blanket "wrong move" statement very suspicious. If an operation is only worth the capital already placed into it, then it's not lucrative and worthy to be cut if that capital can be used elsewhere for better effect (which has happened at EWR).

A return to JFK would be a mistake according to his own admission unless capital costs (including the need for more aircraft) plummet.
minnyfly is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:40 am
  #35  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cape Cod
Programs: Free agent
Posts: 1,535
Originally Posted by ysolde
I live in Manhattan (on the UWS). Theoretically, it is easier for me to fly in and out of EWR (geographically closer) than out of JFK. However, I avoid EWR like the Plague. *snip*
I live in Chelsea and feel the same way. Most of my travel out of JFK/LGA is with OPM so I'm in a cab about 90% of the time. Every cab I've taken from EWR has ended up as a hassle. I've excluded EWR from every personal trip flight search for as long as I can remember because of the annoyances. I also haven't flown UA metal since the 90's so maybe they should stay out at EWR so my JFK flight delays don't get any worse.
MSYtoJFKagain is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:40 am
  #36  
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: UA Premier Gold
Posts: 502
Originally Posted by minnyfly
Like I said. If that's the reason why a return isn't worth it, which is reasonable, that means JFK was a marginal operation at best on the overall bottom line. That makes his blanket "wrong move" statement very suspicious. If an operation is only worth the capital already placed into it, then it's not lucrative and worthy to be cut.
The JFK operation may not have been profitable, but the knock-on effect was losing NYC, LAX and SFO based HVF, which has reduced profits across the whole network.
smxflyer is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:48 am
  #37  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Programs: WN, AA, UA, DL
Posts: 1,313
Originally Posted by smxflyer
The JFK operation may not have been profitable, but the knock-on effect was losing NYC, LAX and SFO based HVF, which has reduced profits across the whole network.
I said "overall bottom line", which means the entire network. Again, if every factual statement he says is correct, that means JFK was only worth the capital already invested. That's actually an admission that JFK was worthy to be cut. At that point it's a sunk cost scenario (except for the aircraft and some equipment and employees which can be reallocated), and the only question that needs to be answered is if higher returns can be found by moving capital elsewhere.
minnyfly is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:56 am
  #38  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: San Francisco/Tel Aviv/YYZ
Programs: CO 1K-MM
Posts: 10,757
The "admission" was that JFK was important to big corporate accounts that fly a lot across the network. So, if they lost $10M a year on JFK, but those accounts contributed $100M overall profit across the network, they lost $90M getting out and losing those account.

At this point they probably have to sleep in the bed they've made, since going back to JFK means buying slots, getting real estate , building a polaris lounge, etc.
entropy is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:59 am
  #39  
Senior Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: UA Plat/2MM [23-yr. 1K, now emeritus] clawing way back to WN-A List; MR LT Titanium; HY Whateverist.
Posts: 12,390
Leaving New York’s JFK "Was the Wrong Decision"...

What a coincidence: that's exactly what I said on my UA post-flight survey asking about my p.s. EWR->SFO in March.

As a once/twice a year "P" fare customer on this route, I've never run an airline but, esp. coming back to pick up p.s. from Brooklyn or W. Conn., there's no question which terminal is easier and quicker to get to: JFK. And while JFK has some serious traffic issues getting to/from, so can EWR.

Once one gets to JFK, the customer experience is infinitely better in so many aspects: signage, check-in, TSA Pre check, distance between TSA or baggage claim and the gate/UC Club, avoiding the hordes of people in poorly designed piers in this mega-plex which EWR is, helpfulness of UA staff, etc., etc.

Only Q. I have is: when is UA returning p.s. to JFK??
Ocn Vw 1K is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:00 am
  #40  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,255
Originally Posted by minnyfly
And why should we believe your assessment?
What assessment did I make? oh, that's right, I didn't offer one.

Originally Posted by minnyfly
AndHere's why we take it with more than a grain of salt:
"We?" Who else are you speaking on behalf of?

Originally Posted by minnyfly
I don't care who makes the statement and what it is. I look at the evidence. Executives are paid to lie if they have to.
How do you have better evidence than the current president of United?

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 21, 2017 at 12:04 pm Reason: Quote updated to reflect Moderator edit
halls120 is online now  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:04 am
  #41  
Suspended
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: BOS
Posts: 15,027
Maybe *A should be told to fly to EWR instead of JFK.
Dieuwer is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:06 am
  #42  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: PSM
Posts: 69,232
Originally Posted by MSYtoJFKagain
I live in Chelsea and feel the same way. Most of my travel out of JFK/LGA is with OPM so I'm in a cab about 90% of the time. Every cab I've taken from EWR has ended up as a hassle.
I also live in Chelsea. I take the train 95% of the time and the transit time to either jFK or EWR is roughly the same. EWR costs $10 more but both are under $20. And if you're taking a car anyways I'm not suer what the hassle is. Call dispatch, stand on the curb, get in, ride, get out.
Originally Posted by ysolde
I live on the UWS, and the last time I flew into EWR, the cab ride home cost me $120, plus tip.
You got fleeced by a cab driver. Definitely blame UA for that.
Originally Posted by PaulInTheSky
pay that petty $20USD for the bridge/tunnel fees.
Decidedly not $20, but keep trying.
Originally Posted by PaulInTheSky
For Uber/taxi, I'd like to get from LGA/JFK, because there's one less bridge that you have to worry about,

There is one river crossing from any of the three airports to Manhattan. If you're crossing more than one bridge or tunnel you're doing it wrong.
sbm12 is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:19 am
  #43  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,336
Can someone here tell me which *A carriers and other partners use EWR and which ones use JFK? Furthermore, are there AC flights to/from LGA?
MSPeconomist is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:22 am
  #44  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Programs: AAdvantage Executive Platinum, Delta Silver Medallion, Marriott Bonvoy Ambassador
Posts: 14,017
Originally Posted by sbm12
You got fleeced by a cab driver. Definitely blame UA for that.
.
Why would I blame UA for that? I wasn't flying UA when it happened.

It's simply one of the (big) reasons why I choose to avoid EWR: it's expensive, inconvenient, takes forever to get there and back, and, IMO, it's a pit of an airport.
ysolde is offline  
Old Apr 21, 2017, 9:23 am
  #45  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: NYC
Posts: 27,191
Originally Posted by deskover54
It's very insightful, but still leaves me scratching my head. I got to New York a lot, and it's way easier to get into the city from EWR than JFK. JFK is 1:10 on the train. EWR is like 40 mins on the NJ Transit.
You're definitely taking the wrong train from JFK then. I think actual travel time from Penn Station to both airports is roughly similar (JFK probably a few minutes shorter).

But the LIRR offers much more frequent service than NJ Transit, especially on the weekends and at off hours. I almost never bother checking the LIRR schedule, I know there will always be a train in 10-15 minutes. With NJT, it can be 40+ minutes between trains sometimes.

I used to be a die-hard CO traveler, and as an Upper West Side resident, it wasn't hard to justify that EWR wasn't really that bad to get to.
But there are just more (reasonable) options to get to/from JFK. It's easy to avoid the tolls, especially at off-hours. Even taxis are fine in a pinch, in either direction. Nobody in their right mind should take a taxi to Manhattan from EWR! And good luck finding one to take you there from Manhattan...

Last edited by ijgordon; Apr 21, 2017 at 9:29 am
ijgordon is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.