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United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}

United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}

Old Apr 21, 2017, 7:56 am
  #16  
 
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Originally Posted by kop84
It wouldn't be easy or cheap...those slots the gave up at JFK are long gone, and not may airlines are interested in selling them.
They can request a waitlist for that, just like the rest of us waitlisting for upgrades. The chance of it to clear is probably similar to us competing for TODers.

Originally Posted by EWR764
I still think this was, in the scheme of things, a pretty minor consideration. UA wasn't co-located with any reasonable connecting partners at JFK and didn't even codeshare with all of the Star carriers there. If anything, *A connections are easier at EWR given the behind-security transfers available to LH/OS/SK/LX/TP/AI/ET.
Definitely right, but imagine a passenger would like go with UA in SFO/LAX(might be SAN/SEA-JFK) and go to a non-JV partner to EU/MidEast, when you need one more connections at FRA/MUC in their JV agreement anyway. Not all the EU carriers fly direct to SFO/LAX or other West Coasts. LO is one of those, of course you can make an argument people can go through ORD or even YYZ to WAW.

Originally Posted by EWR764
The NYC transcons are about O&D first, and for UA, secondarily feeding the Pacific network.
Originally Posted by laxmillenial
You underestimate the Flyertalk community
I, for one, would. LOL.
Oh don't get it wrong, if it's easily accessible to JFK, definitely. But I certainly get what the West Coasters think. Who in the right mind would like to go from Newark to Manhattan with two bridges/one tunnel at any hour after landing? I certainly wouldn't. From any Northeastern states and DC/NC area, going to LGA/JFK kills EWR any time, unless their final destination is Jersey area

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 21, 2017 at 11:58 am Reason: repaired quote
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 7:57 am
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by deskover54
I'm genuinely curious if people going to Manhattan really prefer JFK over EWR. I certainly don't, but maybe I'm an anomaly? I prefer LGA to JFK, it's 30 mins into the city!
I lived in Manhattan for 10 years, work there, have friends who live/work there, running the gamut from airline agnostic to hardcore brand loyalists. For locals who know how to get around, there really does not seem to be a dramatic preference of one versus the other when it comes to EWR and JFK. I think the perception is both are mildly inconvenient. LGA is a different story, historically the local Manhattan market has a strong preference for LGA over both EWR/JFK, but the construction there is a major, albeit temporary, headache.

In my estimation, it's the inbound NYC traffic which looks at EWR as substantially less convenient than JFK to Manhattan. That's why Kirby's comments make sense to me. Previous management, coming from the Continental side, thought about the market from the position as an incumbent carrier in the NYC market and a distant also-ran on the West Coast.

Last edited by EWR764; Apr 21, 2017 at 8:09 am
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:00 am
  #18  
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Thanks for sharing the article, very interesting. It is one more example of why I think FT is so interesting. The airline business is just a fascinatingly complex model. Loyalty programs matter because of all the knock-on effects of capturing near-100% of a person's spend. The importance of JFK to LAX<>LHR premium fares makes total sense but is something that seems really difficult to model/optimize. Again, thanks for posting.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:03 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by halls120
Don't be so negative - instead of a 17.05 inch seat in Y, the new 777x seats will be 17.55 inches wide!
Or, airlines think about adding an 11th seat per row. Wouldn't that be fun!
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:04 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by EWR764
I lived in Manhattan for 10 years, work there, have friends who live/work there, running the gamut from airline agnostic to hardcore brand loyalists. For locals who know how to get around, there really does not seem to be a dramatic preference of one versus the other when it comes to EWR and JFK. I think the perception is both are mildly inconvenient. LGA is a different story, historically the local Manhattan market has a strong preference for LGA over both EWR/JFK, but the construction there is a major, albeit temporary, headache.

In my estimation, it's the inbound NYC traffic which looks at EWR as substantially less convenient than JFK to Manhattan. That's why Kirby's comments make sense to me.
From NE commuting to Manhattan at times, I can definitely tell you I wouldn't want to go to EWR just to get to Manhattan, keep waiting in the traffic and pay that petty $20USD for the bridge/tunnel fees. I'd agree with EWR764 that if you take train/subway anyway. For Uber/taxi, I'd like to get from LGA/JFK, because there's one less bridge that you have to worry about, and it's usually busy at any hour. Definitely I'd love to go to LGA all the time, but for some West Coasters, you'd think it's still going to save time to get to JFK when non-stops are everywhere vs connections to LGA. The longest flights to LGA are probably SLC/DEN/PHX-LGA, but anything farther would definitely require a connection to get to LGA.

When you commute to Manhattan often enough, the last thing you wanna do is to wait in the traffic going through the toll roads/highways.

Last edited by PaulInTheSky; Apr 21, 2017 at 8:11 am
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:09 am
  #21  
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Originally Posted by PaulInTheSky
...Definitely I'd love to go to LGA all the time, but for some West Coasters, you'd think it's still going to save time to get to JFK when non-stops are everywhere vs connections to LGA. The longest flights to LGA are probably SLC/DEN/PHX-LGA, but anything farther would definitely require a connection to get t LGA.....
I seem to recall some chatter about lifting that distance restriction out of LGA on the back-end of the remodel. Maybe that's one thing UA can help lobby for to attempt to recover some of what they lost by leaving JFK.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:14 am
  #22  
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Confirmation what many of us have been saying . . . high J loads on EWR-LAX/SFO doesn't mean dumping JFK was the right move.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:14 am
  #23  
 
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Kirby makes strange statements. It was "wrong" to leave, but it's also "wrong" to return. Okaaaay. That means JFK was a marginal operation at best, and one then can't easily say it was "wrong". Also UA doesn't have the aircraft to operate PS at both JFK and EWR at a reasonable frequency. Have to take this with a grain of salt since his former airline doubled down on premium service from JFK and is a fraction of the size of UA's PS at EWR.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:14 am
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by LIH
I seem to recall some chatter about lifting that distance restriction out of LGA on the back-end of the remodel. Maybe that's one thing UA can help lobby for to attempt to recover some of what they lost by leaving JFK.
Yes, to SLC or PHX on sometimes weekends, definitely saw SLC/PHX non-stops before, but it looks like it's also gone, just DEN now.

Last edited by PaulInTheSky; Apr 21, 2017 at 8:31 am
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:17 am
  #25  
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Originally Posted by minnyfly
Kirby makes strange statements. It was "wrong" to leave, but it's also "wrong" to return. Okaaaay. That means JFK was a marginal operation at best, and one then can't easily say it was "wrong". Also UA doesn't have the aircraft to operate PS at both JFK and EWR at a reasonable frequency. Have to take this with a grain of salt since his former airline doubled down on premium service from JFK and is a fraction of the size of UA's PS at EWR.
Kirby is the current President of UA. Why should we believe your assessment over his?
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:22 am
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by deskover54
It's very insightful, but still leaves me scratching my head. I got to New York a lot, and it's way easier to get into the city from EWR than JFK. JFK is 1:10 on the train. EWR is like 40 mins on the NJ Transit.

The article sites actors - do they care which airport? (I honestly don't know). It talks about flying F...well, they could have kept 3 cabin on the EWR routes, and could still bring it back. But that point seemed more to be about aircraft config than airport.

I'm genuinely curious if people going to Manhattan really prefer JFK over EWR. I certainly don't, but maybe I'm an anomaly? I prefer LGA to JFK, it's 30 mins into the city!
It takes 19 minutes on the LIRR from Jamaica Airtrain Station to Penn Station. It's only a few dollars more than the E train.

Part of the difficulty with EWR, as others have mentioned, is if you are not going to take public transit. EWR originating cabs to the city aren't cheap with the trans-Hudson tolls. I live in Brooklyn, and I avoid EWR like the plague. A cab or car service easily runs $80-100, plus the concerns of tunnel traffic make it a risky option. Also, the train connections aren't particularly convenient unless you're going to Penn Station or willing to hop on the PATH to downtown. For me to get to Brooklyn by train from EWR is: Airtrain to NJ Transit to Midtown and a long subway ride to BK or Airtrain to NJ Transit to PATH to shorter subway ride. JFK to Brooklyn is a $35 car service.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:30 am
  #27  
 
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Location of Manhattan - Huge difference.

To be fair, it also depends on your hotel and your final location in Manhattan. If you are in West Manhattan with only minutes after getting off the Jersey-NYC bridges, then EWR can end up being even faster. Everywhere else in Manhattan it would be either JFK/LGA.
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:31 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by halls120
Kirby is the current President of UA. Why should we believe your assessment over his?
And why should we believe your assessment?

Here's why we take it with more than a grain of salt:

-he has been in the business of dissing the United he didn't participate in
-his belief about leaving JFK isn't supported well by the evidence and logic tests

I don't care who makes the statement and what it is. I look at the evidence. Executives are paid to lie if they have to.

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Apr 21, 2017 at 12:01 pm Reason: Discuss the issues, not the poster
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:32 am
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by Kacee
Confirmation what many of us have been saying . . . high J loads on EWR-LAX/SFO doesn't mean dumping JFK was the right move.
^
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Old Apr 21, 2017, 8:32 am
  #30  
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Originally Posted by minnyfly
Kirby makes strange statements. It was "wrong" to leave, but it's also "wrong" to return. Okaaaay. That means JFK was a marginal operation at best, and one then can't easily say it was "wrong". Also UA doesn't have the aircraft to operate PS at both JFK and EWR at a reasonable frequency. Have to take this with a grain of salt since his former airline doubled down on premium service from JFK and is a fraction of the size of UA's PS at EWR.
Likely because the barrier to re-entry is too high. They would need to buy slots again, re-allocate fleet, crew base, terminal space, etc. Don't be surprised if UA is back at JFK at some point.

Last edited by smxflyer; Apr 21, 2017 at 8:39 am
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