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United's Basic Economy - Discussion, Q&A, ... {Archive}

Old Feb 9, 2019, 5:12 pm
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This is an archive thread -- the active thread is United's Basic Economy - Discussion, Q&A, ...

Important Note: these fares became available 21 Feb 2017 for MSP for travel beginning 18 Apr 2017. More markets were added 19 April 2017 for travel starting 9 May 2017.

Related thread: Basic Economy Airport and Plane Experiences (First or Second Hand)

If you booked before the dates above, you did not have a BE fare. If purchased on united.com you will see a warning like:


4. MileagePlus members will earn full Premier qualifying dollars, 50% Premier qualifying miles and 0.5 Premier qualifying segments for each flight, as well as lifetime miles and toward the four-segment minimum.



Link to UA's description of how these fares will work: Basic Economy.

Here are the key facts:
  • No seat assignments until check-in. Seats will be assigned by the system and cannot be changed.
    *NEW* When purchasing a Basic Economy ticket, you will not receive a complimentary seat assignment but may be able to purchase advance seat assignments during booking and up until check-in opens. If you dont purchase an advance seat assignment, your seat will be automatically assigned to you prior to boarding, and you won't be able to change your seat once it's been assigned.
  • No guarantee of adjacent seats with companions
  • No voluntary ticket changes after 24 hour purchase period
  • Carry on limited to 1 personal item unless the customer is a MP Premier member, primary cardmember of a qualifying MileagePlus credit card, or Star Alliance *G
  • Customers ineligible for carry-on who bring one to the gate will be charged a $25 convenience fee to gate-check in addition to standard baggage fees (source: @united twitter)
  • Customers will not be eligible for Economy Plus or premium cabin upgrades. This includes all forms of upgrades (CPU,supported or purchased). Likewise for E+ access (elite or purchased).
  • Customers will board in the last boarding group (currently Group 5) unless the customer is a MP Premier member, primary cardmember of a qualifying MileagePlus credit card, or Star Alliance *G
  • Companions on same PNR will have same boarding group and carryon if one on the PNR has a waiver
  • No combinability with regular economy fares or partner carriers. Interline travel is not permitted.
  • Tickets will earn RDMs (based on fare and status), PQMs (50% of distance), PQSs (0.5), PQDs, in addition it will count for minimum 4 segment and lifetime miles (New as of Dec 2018)
  • Basic Economy tickets will use booking code 'N'
  • Online check-in only with paid checked bag, otherwise need to see a United representative to verify the onboard bag allowance and receive a boarding pass.
In air, passengers will receive the same standard economy inflight amenities including United Economy dining options, inflight entertainment, United Wi-Fi (availability depending on the flight)

related threads
New UA/*A TATL -LGT Economy fare - no free first bag, no changes/upgrades allowed

Benefit impact of restricted economy fares on UA Elites (Basic Econ, -LGT, Light Econ

Pre-announcement speculation thread (now closed) New "Budget Economy" fares
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United's Basic Economy - Discussion, Q&A, ... {Archive}

Old Aug 17, 2017, 11:45 am
  #2461  
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Originally Posted by Exleftseat
Did not know that. Thanks^
I didn't either until I checked in response to your post
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 11:49 am
  #2462  
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Originally Posted by Kacee
I didn't either until I checked in response to your post
Does anyone know why its US only? I can't think of anything obvious.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 11:49 am
  #2463  
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Originally Posted by gglave
I was criticized for saying it at the time, but months later I'll say it again: This is exactly what happened with Tango fares on Air Canada - I'm sure United watched with interest.

At first the delta was very small - Over time it grew and grew.

Today, on a YYZ-YVR return fare, the Tango difference is $300 USD ($500 USD vs $800 USD).

The same will happen here - Not overnight, but it will happen. Mark my words.
AC and UA operate in very, very different markets, and I don't think competitive forces will ever allow the kind of differentials you see on Tango vs. Flex on AC. It just won't happen.

How many carriers fly YYZ-YVR? 2? (I mean, really, with relative frequency, I barely count transat at 1x per day). On a comparably popular route within the US, say NYC-SFO, I count at least 6 different carriers flying nonstop. There's a reason AC could get away with limited benefit fares (Tango) 15-20 years ago, but UA (or DL, or AA, etc.) couldn't do it now...until the ULCC crowd became enough of a threat.

Originally Posted by mrswirl
Haven't noticed BE fare differentials much until recently. Looking at a high-frequency route like DEN-SFO is showing price consistency among all the carriers - but only if comparing against BE fares. Regular economy adds a 45% premium!!

This is where UA is going to fail. Why on earth would someone choose UA over WN in this situation??

Lots of reasons.

Firstly, unless the traveler is saavy enough to know to go to Southwest's website, they will never even know what the fare is with them. Many will go to whatever OTA they use....Orbitz, Expedia, etc. and will look there. WN fares won't show up, and they'll see the UA fares, along with others, and see what pops up first.

Secondly, not everybody books solely based on price. Some may not like WNs boarding policy, greyhound style seating (at least with BE, you get a seat assignment of some kind prior to boarding, even if its not ideal), and some may not want to have wannabe stand up comedians give announcements for 2 hours. Some may like the UA departure times better. Some may want UA RDMs. Or some might want to (cough, cough) buy up to regular economy, yup, even over WN, because they need the PQMs for next year's status, or want to burn miles on an upgrade, or whatever (not saying that's advisable here, but some may want that). For me personally, my biggest reason for not flying WN in the past: until last month, they didn't even serve my home airport (but that's a minor issue, right?), and even if they did, often don't serve both ends.

Absolutely, some may see a better value in the WN fare, and that's great for them. Even with BE, some others may see better value on UA, too.

Originally Posted by FrenchBullies1975
On UA292 for a business trip. I'm guessing 2/3 of this flight is in Basic Economy fares, given the length of the Group 5 line and the number of groups that have been split up. Woman just asked me to give up 7F for a middle so she could sit with her 12-ish year old daughter.

The gentleman in 7C is a much better person than I am, clearly.

What a show
Traveling with a toddler, I do sympathize with those who are split up from their kids, and do try and accommodate....when it is something out of their control - which does happen enough. When they tried to save $20 and try to inconvenience others...nope. They need to buy the fare that's right for them....if sitting together is important - that is not BE.

Originally Posted by Francactc
If you purchase a basic ticket can you still check a free bag if you have the united CC? Also, if you are not assigned a seat and the flight full what would happen if only economy plus seats are left open?
Checked bag charges/waivers don't change based on BE. Seats will be assigned...either you'll be put in whatever empty seat, it might be in E+, or GAs will move people/kiosk will offer E+ to others, and you will get assigned somethig in the freed up E- seats.

Originally Posted by Kacee
Nor is the large number of BE pax a sign of success. UA doesn't want to sell lots of BE tix (especially now that they've limited the fares to the discount classes). They want customers to be paying up to get out of these fares.
I disagree - I think with the $20 differentials, or whatever, UA can make out either way. For those that buy up to regular, they are getting the extra revenue earlier, but for those who end up in BE, they likely get the extra revenue (and then some) with checked bag fees since even standard carry-on rollers are subject to those (if elites are buying these fares though in relatively high numbers though....then yeah, that's an issue).

Originally Posted by Kacee
Pax paying the same for BE as they were previously paying for cheapest available regular economy would result in revenue neutral, not an increase in fare revenue.

And UA would be foregoing E+ revenue, TOD revenue, and change fees with these fares, which may well neutralize or even outweigh any uptick in checked bag fees.
Not necessarily revenue neutral, because if these folks now have to pay to check a bag, where they could carry it on free before, that's still $25 each way.

My guess is that the amount of people buying BE that would buy E+ or upgrades are minimal - probably statistically insignificant so probably very little if any revenue loss there. Maybe the change fees are an issue, but on the other hand, for a change, these tickets become throw away, UA can keep the revenue while re-selling the seat, and then they potentially have the pax buying another ticket for a different flight (potentially, because without being able to re-use the value, I'd guess you have more folks that will look at other carriers vs. on a regular ticket where a change means they'd try to use the value left).

Originally Posted by Kacee
That's what UA planned for. But the reports of very large BG5 and lots of unassigned seats at T-24 suggests that UA may be selling more of these tix than they intended.
Disagree. If they were selling 'too many' N fares, then they'd just zero out the buckets when they've sold enough. My guess: UA doesn't really have too much of an issue selling the amount of N fares they do.

Originally Posted by Kacee
From the fare rules:
TICKETS MAY ONLY BE SOLD IN THE UNITED STATES.
Online changes POS to local based on CC address, but I'm not sure buying over the phone does that.

I haven't heard of it for BE, but people have reported being able to get US POS prices by calling in and using their local, non-US cards with an agent. Of course, in this case, the phone booking fee would likely cost more than the BE to regular fare differential, so there's that, but presumably, it is still possible.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 11:54 am
  #2464  
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Originally Posted by Exleftseat
Did not know that. Thanks^
You could try using an OTA, such as Expedia or Orbitz. That often allows you to get around point of sale restrictions.

Last edited by WineCountryUA; Aug 17, 2017 at 2:04 pm Reason: unneeded comment removed
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 11:56 am
  #2465  
 
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Originally Posted by spin88
Alas we appear to be seeing both loss of load factor and underperformance in prasm.
Except not where BE is available. Only where BE is not available. So, no, there's no appearance of BE being a factor. And it didn't slow DL's PRASM growth back in the day either, only likely helped it, so it would be a surprise if it did the reverse effect now.

Originally Posted by spin88
Do it like DL does, and give more status credit for BE. However, the story of UA since 2012 has been sticking with self-destructive approaches to their customers even in the face of evidence it is costing them $$$.
Do you honestly believe that status miles are the straw that breaks the camel's back and significantly affects revenue? You think that DL elites are just fine giving up the chance at CPU's, C+, and even assigned seats and will buy BE as long as they get status miles?

It's telling that you keep beating the drum that UA is hurting themselves when the operations and financials now clearly say otherwise and tell people they are a top carrier to fly. And passengers are responding.

Originally Posted by Kacee
Pax paying the same for BE as they were previously paying for cheapest available regular economy would result in revenue neutral, not an increase in fare revenue.

And UA would be foregoing E+ revenue, TOD revenue, and change fees with these fares, which may well neutralize or even outweigh any uptick in checked bag fees.
Under the scenario that BE is the same price as Y, the only way it's revenue neutral is if no one buys up to the new Y price.

For how empty E+ cabins generally are, few people are buying up for extra legroom, and those that want BE are generally price sensitive and wouldn't be interested in E+ anyway. The loss of that ancillary revenue has to be minor, if any with the implementation of BE.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 12:55 pm
  #2466  
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Originally Posted by minnyfly
Under the scenario that BE is the same price as Y, the only way it's revenue neutral is if no one buys up to the new Y price.
That's just not true. It takes quite a few non-BE passengers to make up for the revenue lost by an empty seat (due to book-away). It's entirely possible for BE to be revenue negative. Unfortunately, I don't think that it will be -- or DL would have dropped it already -- but I'd welcome it if it were.

Originally Posted by minnyfly
For how empty E+ cabins generally are, few people are buying up for extra legroom, and those that want BE are generally price sensitive and wouldn't be interested in E+ anyway. The loss of that ancillary revenue has to be minor, if any with the implementation of BE.
This makes no sense. In a non-BE world, the vast majority of passengers on the plane have purchased the lowest fare class that was available at the time of booking for their cabin of service, whether they're interested in E+ or not. People looking to upgrade internationally will have bought up to W, and some people will have selected a flexible / unrestricted ticket, either due to uncertain plans or corporate travel policies. But most everyone else just looks at the lowest available economy / first price and goes from there.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 1:37 pm
  #2467  
 
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Originally Posted by Kacee
You could try using an OTA, such as Expedia or Orbitz. That often allows you to get around point of sale restrictions.
Just received call from my daughter in Phoenix and she was able to complete the booking on
Expedia. Thanks a million for your tip. Highly appreciate it!
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 2:44 pm
  #2468  
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Has any blogger published a truly comprehensive summary of tricks and pitfalls of this odious fare category?

Having just booked one of these fares as a 1K, I've got a few weird questions (that have probably been answered somewhere, but I can't find the answers).

1. I know I get a free full sized carry on (and early boarding), but do my companions (same rez) get this benefit, too?

2. As I 1K, do I still get my free food and drink on board?

3. I saw something that you have to have a checked bag to use online check-in. Is that true for elites? Would I get a free checked bag as a 1K? And could I use this trick to get online check-in even if I don't actually check a bag?

4. Is there any way to change your "randomly" assigned seat before departure (like if we get separated middle seats)?

Thanks!
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 2:56 pm
  #2469  
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Originally Posted by iahphx
1. I know I get a free full sized carry on (and early boarding), but do my companions (same rez) get this benefit, too?

2. As I 1K, do I still get my free food and drink on board?

3. I saw something that you have to have a checked bag to use online check-in. Is that true for elites? Would I get a free checked bag as a 1K? And could I use this trick to get online check-in even if I don't actually check a bag?

4. Is there any way to change your "randomly" assigned seat before departure (like if we get separated middle seats)?

Thanks!
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not true for elites, and, yes, you still get your free checked bag allowances. No need to trick anything.
4. No. If you want to sit with your companions, UA does not want you to buy this fare.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 3:10 pm
  #2470  
 
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Originally Posted by emcampbe

I disagree - I think with the $20 differentials, or whatever, UA can make out either way. For those that buy up to regular, they are getting the extra revenue earlier, but for those who end up in BE, they likely get the extra revenue (and then some) with checked bag fees since even standard carry-on rollers are subject to those (if elites are buying these fares though in relatively high numbers though....then yeah, that's an issue).
Yep. I have no way of proving this, but just looking at the way it was designed, I believe UA doesn't care if you book BE or not. One way they get extra revenue from a buy up, and the other they get ancillary revenue. I would think this outweighs the loss of buy-ups and change fees, which I wouldn't think people buying BE would do that often anyway.

The only way they lose money is if people book away. I still haven't seen a really logical argument for why a frequent customer would book away, unless they were forced by an employer to book BE. However, I'll note, anecdotally, that while I'm flying less this year than before, I've received several upgrades as a Gold, and also had an empty middle seat exit row several times. Over the last couple years, those were very very rare occurrences.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 3:35 pm
  #2471  
 
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Originally Posted by JBord
The only way they lose money is if people book away. I still haven't seen a really logical argument for why a frequent customer would book away, unless they were forced by an employer to book BE.
Count me as one who has so far booked away as a consequence of BE fares.

I'm a MM so I'm not chasing PQMs for status and I'm not going to pony up an extra 45% premium or deliberately suffer E- when WN is charging the same price for the same routes.

Anecdotal for sure and maybe I'm an outlier but the general bad taste of UA debasing their FFP to drive service standards even lower and prop up ancillary revenue is obvious to many.

At least with WN you know what you're going to get and they don't have to play games with their fare structures.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 3:45 pm
  #2472  
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Originally Posted by iahphx
blogger ... truly comprehensive
One of these things is not like the other.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 4:45 pm
  #2473  
 
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Originally Posted by jsloan
That's just not true. It takes quite a few non-BE passengers to make up for the revenue lost by an empty seat (due to book-away). It's entirely possible for BE to be revenue negative. Unfortunately, I don't think that it will be -- or DL would have dropped it already -- but I'd welcome it if it were.

This makes no sense. In a non-BE world, the vast majority of passengers on the plane have purchased the lowest fare class that was available at the time of booking for their cabin of service, whether they're interested in E+ or not. People looking to upgrade internationally will have bought up to W, and some people will have selected a flexible / unrestricted ticket, either due to uncertain plans or corporate travel policies. But most everyone else just looks at the lowest available economy / first price and goes from there.
I would just observe again that what delta did (be only on very lowest advanced purchase fares, and then you basically just lose an upgrade shot) is both less of a take away, and less likely to impact business travelers. I don't think we can make any assumptions about book-away from dl's experience. Delta did not report any book away impact, united has admitted to one.

But I think the killer is your second point. There are few travelers who will pay appreciably more to fly united at this point, but it is what united is in essence demanding, and for elites it is on many/most flights (it used to be all flights but they have backed off). That will cause a book away, and I think if it continues some elites to rethink trying to keep status in united, unwilling to pay extra each time they fly united.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 4:51 pm
  #2474  
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Originally Posted by jsloan
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Not true for elites, and, yes, you still get your free checked bag allowances. No need to trick anything.
4. No. If you want to sit with your companions, UA does not want you to buy this fare.

Thanks for this very helpful info. From reported experience, does UA TRY to sit "families" who buy BE together? My daughter recently had an experience with Ryanair where they intentionally split up her party (Ryanair admits they do this to encourage folks to pay for seats).


Originally Posted by JBord
The only way they lose money is if people book away. I still haven't seen a really logical argument for why a frequent customer would book away, unless they were forced by an employer to book BE. However, I'll note, anecdotally, that while I'm flying less this year than before, I've received several upgrades as a Gold, and also had an empty middle seat exit row several times. Over the last couple years, those were very very rare occurrences.
So far I haven't exactly "booked away," but I have seen some UA fares that I would have booked had they not been BE. To me, it's a numbers game. I'm obviously not going to prefer UA if all I'm getting is their BE product (even the enhanced version given to high elites). The BE fare I did buy was $80 cheaper roundtrip for a 3 hour flight. For my party of 3, that would have been $240. I don't think economy plus and assigned seats are worth $240. Others may differ.
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Old Aug 17, 2017, 5:09 pm
  #2475  
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Originally Posted by spin88
I would just observe again that what delta did (be only on very lowest advanced purchase fares, and then you basically just lose an upgrade shot) is both less of a take away, and less likely to impact business travelers.
The only additional take-away for a UA Premier member vs a DL Premier member is Premier qualifying credit. If I were a DL premier, I'd hate BE just as much as I do as a UA premier. I care about what I spend on business travel, but I care more about what I spend on personal travel. And I definitely care about sitting in E+ / C+ at a minimum, which is one of the reasons that I fly UA instead of DL.

And, you know what? I don't live in a hub city. I could easily fly DL instead of UA -- both are approved travel options for my company. UA has more flights in and out of AUS, but DL is expanding and I could make them work. The flight costs are typically about the same.

I choose UA because they're a better fit for my personal travel.

We often talk about "business travelers" and "leisure travelers" as though they're completely different sets of people, but most business travelers also have some personal travel too. (Otherwise, what's the point of frequent flyer miles?). All of the major airlines need to be careful about treating "leisure travelers" too harshly lest they lose the "business travelers" that are actually the same people wearing different hats.
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