Does getting bumped due to an equipment swap constitute an IDB?
Oct 23, 2014, 8:57 pm
#46
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I think some people think of writing about every possible issue to DOT is somehow going to punish UA. Its always the same people who do this.
You are right anything can be passed off as "Operational". I'm not even sure what equipment they put on it as the RJ145 and Q200/300 are some of the smallest planes United has and they are all under 60 seats.
What UA planes have 15 less seats than the 145 and the Q200/300? Correct me if i'm wrong but I dont think UA has Saabs or beechcraft at EWR sounds more like operational downgrade plus some weight and balance bumps
You are right anything can be passed off as "Operational". I'm not even sure what equipment they put on it as the RJ145 and Q200/300 are some of the smallest planes United has and they are all under 60 seats.
What UA planes have 15 less seats than the 145 and the Q200/300? Correct me if i'm wrong but I dont think UA has Saabs or beechcraft at EWR sounds more like operational downgrade plus some weight and balance bumps
Oct 23, 2014, 9:22 pm
#47
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You really think UA preferred handling 15 displaced customers and related costs to avoid 2 IDB that likely could been handled as 2 VDBs for $250-$350 each ??? I don't see a chance that worked to UA's benefit.
Oct 23, 2014, 9:39 pm
#48
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On Oct 16th, UA4853 was originally scheduled to be a Q300 (50 seats). Looks like they ended up flying a Dash 8-200 (37 seats) that night. So ~15 displaced passengers sounds right. If there really was 15 displaced passengers (as the gate agent told me), perhaps they used the aircraft swap to conveniently hide the 2 real IDBs.
14 CFR 250.6
(b) The flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons; or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
Last edited by CDKing; Oct 23, 2014 at 9:49 pm
Oct 23, 2014, 9:52 pm
#49
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No. Re-read my post. I don't think they swapped aircrafts just to hide the 2 IDBs. I think they swapped aircrafts.for some unknown operational reason, and hid the 2 IDBs in the group of 15, instead of handling 13 displaced passengers and handling 2 IDBs separately.
Oct 23, 2014, 10:03 pm
#50
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And again the costs of the swap far out-weight the potential exposure to a potential oversold situation.
And finally -- if it was the planes you speculate, this was all UX operational issue and the costs/decisions were not UA's problem. These are flight operator issues.
Conspiracies do not hide around every corner.
Oct 23, 2014, 10:34 pm
#51
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On Oct 16th, UA4853 was originally scheduled to be a Q300 (50 seats). Looks like they ended up flying a Dash 8-200 (37 seats) that night. So ~15 displaced passengers sounds right.
So I'm guessing they knew about the equipment swap for at least a week before it happened. I would have gladly taken an earlier flight if they had told me a day or two before my flight. All of this mess could have been avoided.
I'd hate to be the gate agent who has to deal w/ this situation night after night (where an aircraft was permanently down-gauged, as it appears to have been).
Oct 23, 2014, 11:21 pm
#52
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Oct 23, 2014, 11:42 pm
#53
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I have a slightly different question.
As a UA Gold, why were you in the top half of the bump list? Is it no longer ordered by status? When I was 1P I flew a lot of standby and always was near the top, even at the last minute. I never recall being bumped.
As a UA Gold, why were you in the top half of the bump list? Is it no longer ordered by status? When I was 1P I flew a lot of standby and always was near the top, even at the last minute. I never recall being bumped.
Oct 24, 2014, 11:14 am
#54
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I don't think we've ever established that the bump list is ordered by status. I've seen posts about it ordered either by fare paid or time of check-in or both. Who knows how the GA's decide to do this.
Oct 24, 2014, 11:38 am
#55
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I don't think there is an official ordering of the list and is left up to the GAs discretion. Hopefully the GAs would consider things like status, fare paid, destination, etc. but I suspect most don't and just take those without seat assignments.
Oct 24, 2014, 11:38 am
#56
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Or by seat assignments that don't exist on the replacement aircraft, which is why many FTers try to avoid assigning thenselves row 3 in F on an A320
Oct 24, 2014, 11:52 am
#57
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§ 250.3 Boarding priority rules.
(a) Every carrier shall establish priority rules and criteria for determining which passengers holding confirmed reserved space shall be denied boarding on an oversold flight in the event that an insufficient number of volunteers come forward. Such rules and criteria shall reflect the obligations of the carrier set forth in §§ 250.2a and 250.2b to minimize involuntary denied boarding and to request volunteers, and shall be written in such manner as to be understandable and meaningful to the average passenger. Such rules and criteria shall not make, give, or cause any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to any particular person or subject any particular person to any unjust or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage in any respect whatsoever.
(b) Boarding priority factors may include, but are not limited to, the following:
(1) A passenger's time of check-in;
(2) Whether a passenger has a seat assignment before reaching the departure gate for carriers that assign seats;
(3) The fare paid by a passenger;
(4) A passenger's frequent-flyer status; and
(5) A passenger's disability or status as an unaccompanied minor.
(a) Every carrier shall establish priority rules and criteria for determining which passengers holding confirmed reserved space shall be denied boarding on an oversold flight in the event that an insufficient number of volunteers come forward. Such rules and criteria shall reflect the obligations of the carrier set forth in §§ 250.2a and 250.2b to minimize involuntary denied boarding and to request volunteers, and shall be written in such manner as to be understandable and meaningful to the average passenger. Such rules and criteria shall not make, give, or cause any undue or unreasonable preference or advantage to any particular person or subject any particular person to any unjust or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage in any respect whatsoever.
(b) Boarding priority factors may include, but are not limited to, the following:
(1) A passenger's time of check-in;
(2) Whether a passenger has a seat assignment before reaching the departure gate for carriers that assign seats;
(3) The fare paid by a passenger;
(4) A passenger's frequent-flyer status; and
(5) A passenger's disability or status as an unaccompanied minor.
Oct 24, 2014, 12:25 pm
#58
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Operators are required by law to have an official policy regarding priority for denied boarding. The carrier has a great deal of discretion regarding the details of that policy (e.g. whether or not elites are prioritized) and I'm pretty skeptical that any such policy is followed on a regular basis, but there must be one.
Originally Posted by UA CoC
- Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 12 and 17 who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
- The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
DL, on the other hand, lays it out in their CoC--it's a bit long, and more formatting than I'd like to manage for now, so see the bottom of page 41 in the CoC for the lineup. tl;dr is that F/J/GM+ will be accommodated before others, followed by those with BPs, followed by those without; special needs pax trump all.
Oct 24, 2014, 12:31 pm
#59
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ved me first (along with about 10 others) when they realized they had W&B issues.
Oct 24, 2014, 1:25 pm
#60
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So basically I could be a 1K on a paid J fare and get bumped because there is no official list? That would pretty much end my involvement with UA.
The only evidence I have that pmUA did have a bump list ordered by status was from conversations with a gate agent. At one time there was a list, although this may be more for overbooking. She mentioned that they would always ask for volunteers first, then look if anyone could be re-routed on a direct flight, etc before hitting the list.
Also, another interesting comment. On a flight that was overbooked in economy, they managed to fly NRSA in global first while economy passengers were bumped.
The only evidence I have that pmUA did have a bump list ordered by status was from conversations with a gate agent. At one time there was a list, although this may be more for overbooking. She mentioned that they would always ask for volunteers first, then look if anyone could be re-routed on a direct flight, etc before hitting the list.
Also, another interesting comment. On a flight that was overbooked in economy, they managed to fly NRSA in global first while economy passengers were bumped.