UA offers more true First Class seats than AA
Aug 25, 2014, 4:32 pm
#16
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2012
Programs: UA PP, AA, DL, BA, CX, SPG, HHonors
Posts: 2,002
So if you're happy about UA GF, great. Saying that it's presence might somehow make UA more profitable is just like saying it's presence is the cause of UA financial woes. Either view point lacks any basis. From a factual side:
-AA offers intl F on around 61 planes (47+14). UA offers it on 66 as per your numbers.
-Of course UA has a better network in asia (ironically recent excuse for poor financial performance in quarterly calls), whereas AA has a better network to south America.
-UA does have a better route network than the rest of US legacies, but at least so far that hasn't resulted in much of a profit. (DL did expand quite a bit and their network is looking more impressive everyday personally. Of course there's still the issue of hubs in secondary markets.)
You can decide what aspects of an airline matter to you and make a corresponding choice. Although if your goal is reliable transpac first class award redemptions, you should look at Cathay (easily available with AA miles).
-AA offers intl F on around 61 planes (47+14). UA offers it on 66 as per your numbers.
-Of course UA has a better network in asia (ironically recent excuse for poor financial performance in quarterly calls), whereas AA has a better network to south America.
-UA does have a better route network than the rest of US legacies, but at least so far that hasn't resulted in much of a profit. (DL did expand quite a bit and their network is looking more impressive everyday personally. Of course there's still the issue of hubs in secondary markets.)
You can decide what aspects of an airline matter to you and make a corresponding choice. Although if your goal is reliable transpac first class award redemptions, you should look at Cathay (easily available with AA miles).
Aug 25, 2014, 4:35 pm
#17
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: EWR, BDL
Posts: 4,471
As was mentioned in another thread plan is for UA to offer J & Y seating on international aircraft and no new aircraft delivered will be equipped with an F cabin.
Aug 25, 2014, 4:39 pm
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SEA, but up and down the coast a lot
Programs: Oceanic Airlines Gold Elite
Posts: 20,386
I guess the OP should enjoy UA GF (and the relative advantage over AA and DL) while it lasts.
Aug 25, 2014, 4:40 pm
#19
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 774
Certainly fair, although my personal crystal ball seems to say that GF will either disappear from UA (similar to DL) or shrink to similar AA numbers on a few key routes. Time will tell which, and how quickly that happens (probably a matter of a few years or whenever A350 deliveries start).
Last edited by okrogius; Aug 25, 2014 at 4:53 pm
Aug 25, 2014, 4:43 pm
#20
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MCO
Programs: DL DM/MM, Marriott Plat Premier, HH Diamond, Hyatt Plat, Hertz PC
Posts: 4,081
Certainly understand why you would want GF to remain but – no offense here – you are part of the problem, not the solution. While maybe far from the most expensive problem that UA faces, they can not make GF work if those seats are occupied only by award purchases, op-ups, and non-revs. They need pax who will pay $$$ for GF and that is where the problem is. If you want to see GF succeed, they become part of the solution and pay the going rate. Unfortunately it is doubtful there will be enough other pax who join you so UA’s GF days may be numbered as well.
So, is UA really better here or maybe not just in synch with today's economic reality, eh.
Aug 25, 2014, 4:43 pm
#21
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: EWR, BDL
Posts: 4,471
So I guess that kind of wraps up the debate; as the 747s, 763s and early 777s start getting sent to the junkyard, UA's GF will start vanishing. At some point I would guess UA will pull out their IPTE and do an all-J refresh.
I guess the OP should enjoy UA GF (and the relative advantage over AA and DL) while it lasts.
I guess the OP should enjoy UA GF (and the relative advantage over AA and DL) while it lasts.
Aug 25, 2014, 4:48 pm
#22
Ambassador: Alaska Airlines
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: BWI
Posts: 7,390
Eh, only in the short term. UA is going to start retiring 3-class 767s by the end of the year and they have mentioned that the 747s only have a couple more years before they start removing them from the fleet (when the A350s start arriving I guess).
AA will have 20+ planes with F for years to come.
In 2020, I bet UA will have the same number or less planes with F cabin unless they put in F on the A350s.
AA will have 20+ planes with F for years to come.
In 2020, I bet UA will have the same number or less planes with F cabin unless they put in F on the A350s.
Aug 25, 2014, 4:58 pm
#23
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SEA, WAS, PEK
Programs: UA 3K UGS 3MM
Posts: 2,176
American is cutting back true international First Class to only its 14 B777-300ER planes (http://business.financialpost.com/20...class/)--which fly just 5 routes in the AA network (namely, DFW-LHR, DFW-GRU, LAX-LHR, JFK-LHR, and JFK-GRU).
Say what you want, but that means that United offers the most true international First Class offerings on its fleet of B747-400s (23 of 23), B767-300s (21 of 27), and B777-200s (22 of 29), with FAR more routes to both transpacific and transatlantic destinations--compared to any other US airline. (source https://sites.google.com/site/united...fleet-tracking)
DL already has completely given up international First Class. American now is shrinking that just to its 14 777 planes. United is the only US carrier offering major options in true international First Class.
Say what you want, but I've flown UA GlobalFirst from LAX, SFO, ORD, and IAH many times...and I've also flown Delta's BusinessElite and American's Business. UA GlobalFirst is better than the business version on AA or DL. AA's First Class suite on the 777-300 is better than the UA GlobalFirst suite because it's 4' wider, but otherwise they are comparable.
UA may not measure up in some on-time numbers and its FAs may be reputed to be less friendly than those on other airlines, but when it comes to redeeming for true First, UA offers FAR more options than AA and DL isn't even in the game.
Say what you want, but that means that United offers the most true international First Class offerings on its fleet of B747-400s (23 of 23), B767-300s (21 of 27), and B777-200s (22 of 29), with FAR more routes to both transpacific and transatlantic destinations--compared to any other US airline. (source https://sites.google.com/site/united...fleet-tracking)
DL already has completely given up international First Class. American now is shrinking that just to its 14 777 planes. United is the only US carrier offering major options in true international First Class.
Say what you want, but I've flown UA GlobalFirst from LAX, SFO, ORD, and IAH many times...and I've also flown Delta's BusinessElite and American's Business. UA GlobalFirst is better than the business version on AA or DL. AA's First Class suite on the 777-300 is better than the UA GlobalFirst suite because it's 4' wider, but otherwise they are comparable.
UA may not measure up in some on-time numbers and its FAs may be reputed to be less friendly than those on other airlines, but when it comes to redeeming for true First, UA offers FAR more options than AA and DL isn't even in the game.
Aug 25, 2014, 5:00 pm
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
UA metal/service (as well as AA metal/service) isn't in the same league as those three.
Aug 25, 2014, 5:00 pm
#25
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SEA, WAS, PEK
Programs: UA 3K UGS 3MM
Posts: 2,176
Except for the fact that its an unverified report on an internet forum...
Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; Aug 25, 2014 at 7:13 pm Reason: Merge
Aug 25, 2014, 5:14 pm
#26
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
I think any discuss of International F should acknowledge that different hubs have very different demand patterns from folks able/willing to pay $10-20K for an international long haul flight.
In the US, LA, SF, and JFK (note not EWR) have that traffic. There is some in DFW, some in MIA, and some in ORD, that is about it. Houston has very little of it, none of DL's hubs (ATL, MSP, DTW) have a lot of folks wanting $10-20K seats.
And then from those cities (LAX, SFO, JFK, to a lesser extent DFW, MIA, ORD) there are only a few places with the demand. LHR is No. 1, after that the ME markets, then HKG/SIN/Tokyo. There is also some true F demand into GRU and PEK/PVG/ICN. But beyond that, its a come on
"reward" for those buying lots of J.
Delta made its 2 class decision (as did PMCO) at a time when they did not have a presence in these markets. Delta might rethink this as it builds out JFK and LAX, but for now they have gone with the best (till AA gets installed) installed J product of any US airlines. It fits their route profile.
Both AA and UA on the other hand are in the markets to be able to (on some routs) sell a true FC product.
AA is still doing it (both on "flagship" 321Ts, and the 77Ws. Yes, its not SQ of CX, or EK, but its a nice product.
UAL OTOH, has clearly given it up with just awful soft product. The seat is fine, but the seat will only hang on because its cheaper to leave the seats (and upgrade J passengers) than redo the planes. I know folks who fly (or whose companies buy) F, none fly UAL in F, and none would except the joke soft product and the poor service at $10-20K a pop. They fly SQ, BA, CX, EK, etc.
OP, at this point, AA is making an effort to do a real F product, United, not so much. In a few years, United will just give up, and it will be like the old NW first Class seats that were given to the top tier elites who bought (or redeemed for) J on the few planes that still have it.
In the US, LA, SF, and JFK (note not EWR) have that traffic. There is some in DFW, some in MIA, and some in ORD, that is about it. Houston has very little of it, none of DL's hubs (ATL, MSP, DTW) have a lot of folks wanting $10-20K seats.
And then from those cities (LAX, SFO, JFK, to a lesser extent DFW, MIA, ORD) there are only a few places with the demand. LHR is No. 1, after that the ME markets, then HKG/SIN/Tokyo. There is also some true F demand into GRU and PEK/PVG/ICN. But beyond that, its a come on
"reward" for those buying lots of J.
Delta made its 2 class decision (as did PMCO) at a time when they did not have a presence in these markets. Delta might rethink this as it builds out JFK and LAX, but for now they have gone with the best (till AA gets installed) installed J product of any US airlines. It fits their route profile.
Both AA and UA on the other hand are in the markets to be able to (on some routs) sell a true FC product.
AA is still doing it (both on "flagship" 321Ts, and the 77Ws. Yes, its not SQ of CX, or EK, but its a nice product.
UAL OTOH, has clearly given it up with just awful soft product. The seat is fine, but the seat will only hang on because its cheaper to leave the seats (and upgrade J passengers) than redo the planes. I know folks who fly (or whose companies buy) F, none fly UAL in F, and none would except the joke soft product and the poor service at $10-20K a pop. They fly SQ, BA, CX, EK, etc.
OP, at this point, AA is making an effort to do a real F product, United, not so much. In a few years, United will just give up, and it will be like the old NW first Class seats that were given to the top tier elites who bought (or redeemed for) J on the few planes that still have it.
Aug 25, 2014, 5:14 pm
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: DEN
Programs: UA MM Plat; AA MM Gold; HHonors Diamond
Posts: 15,866
Absolutely. I routinely pay with $$$ and miles to upgrade to BF on pmCO 772s, 764s, 752s, and 788s. Won't pay a dime to upgrade on pmUA 772s and 763s.
Last edited by Bonehead; Aug 25, 2014 at 5:21 pm
Aug 25, 2014, 5:24 pm
#28
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 5,825
If 'redeeming' is what is happening, instead of buying, then the demise of GF is probably going to be accelerated, if anything.
Aug 25, 2014, 5:24 pm
#29
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SEA, WAS, PEK
Programs: UA 3K UGS 3MM
Posts: 2,176
$$$+miles = upgrade. Yes, the PMCO J seat (and frankly PMUA too) is a nice if you are paying for a cheapo coach fare and redeeming miles plus a few hundred bucks to upgrade. It's pathetic if you are actually paying for it.
Aug 25, 2014, 5:28 pm
#30
Ambassador: Alaska Airlines
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: BWI
Posts: 7,390
In the US, LA, SF, and JFK (note not EWR) have that traffic. There is some in DFW, some in MIA, and some in ORD, that is about it. Houston has very little of it, none of DL's hubs (ATL, MSP, DTW) have a lot of folks wanting $10-20K seats.
And then from those cities (LAX, SFO, JFK, to a lesser extent DFW, MIA, ORD) there are only a few places with the demand. LHR is No. 1, after that the ME markets, then HKG/SIN/Tokyo. There is also some true F demand into GRU and PEK/PVG/ICN. But beyond that, its a come on
"reward" for those buying lots of J.
And then from those cities (LAX, SFO, JFK, to a lesser extent DFW, MIA, ORD) there are only a few places with the demand. LHR is No. 1, after that the ME markets, then HKG/SIN/Tokyo. There is also some true F demand into GRU and PEK/PVG/ICN. But beyond that, its a come on
"reward" for those buying lots of J.
I think the main challenge with F cabin is those who can afford it flies private - you won't find many billionaires flying in F. That leaves for a significantly smaller market of paid F traffic.