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UA offers more true First Class seats than AA

UA offers more true First Class seats than AA

Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:29 pm
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UA offers more true First Class seats than AA

American is cutting back true international First Class to only its 14 B777-300ER planes (http://business.financialpost.com/20...class/)--which fly just 5 routes in the AA network (namely, DFW-LHR, DFW-GRU, LAX-LHR, JFK-LHR, and JFK-GRU).

Say what you want, but that means that United offers the most true international First Class offerings on its fleet of B747-400s (23 of 23), B767-300s (21 of 27), and B777-200s (22 of 29), with FAR more routes to both transpacific and transatlantic destinations--compared to any other US airline. (source https://sites.google.com/site/united...fleet-tracking)

DL already has completely given up international First Class. American now is shrinking that just to its 14 777 planes. United is the only US carrier offering major options in true international First Class.

Say what you want, but I've flown UA GlobalFirst from LAX, SFO, ORD, and IAH many times...and I've also flown Delta's BusinessElite and American's Business. UA GlobalFirst is better than the business version on AA or DL. AA's First Class suite on the 777-300 is better than the UA GlobalFirst suite because it's 4' wider, but otherwise they are comparable.

UA may not measure up in some on-time numbers and its FAs may be reputed to be less friendly than those on other airlines, but when it comes to redeeming for true First, UA offers FAR more options than AA and DL isn't even in the game.
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:36 pm
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AA is actively keeping first class on 77W or A321T planes as they're taking deliveries.
UA is actively choosing two-class BF only on their new deliveries.

You can certainly argue about what will happen with existing 777s/747s on either UA/AA side, but only AA is continuing to actively invest money in international F, whereas UA is just stuck with it on some pmUA planes.

Of course there are hundreds of posts on here discussing whether it makes any sense for a legacy US carrier to offer three-cabin F. After all, if you're actually paying for intl F, you'd have to be insane to choose either AA or UA. Calling either true international First is dubious too - there's more to it than a better seat and a soup course.

Last edited by goalie; Aug 25, 2014 at 4:24 pm Reason: removed superfluous comment
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:36 pm
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Blanche, look! They still have caviar.

But Madge, it has been sitting out in the sun and is rancid, and besides, they're serving it with a rusty spoon. And they serve it with sham pain.

But Blanche, it is CAVIAR. It is LUXURIOUS. And the ratio of passengers to lavs is so generous that I won't mind the 14 visits to the lav after eating the caviar.
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:41 pm
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Originally Posted by bhrubin
...B777-200s (22 of 29)...
I think you missed the 22 or so pmCO 772s with 50 BF seats only (which I find to be just fine, by the way).
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:45 pm
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DL gave up international F and is by far the most profitable US carrier with an international presence.

AA is giving up international F on most markets and is the second most profitable US carrier with an international presence. (BTW, you left DFW-HKG off your list of 77W flights.)

UA has the most extensive international F presence of the U.S. airlines on it pmUA planes and is the least profitable.

What could I possibly read into that?
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:50 pm
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UA going from most to zero like Delta.
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:50 pm
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Originally Posted by Always Flyin
What could I possibly read into that?
I certainly wouldn't read anything into it. Correlation isn't causation, and though I don't believe UA offers a competitive global first product vis-a-vis many of the world's airlines, I also don't believe for a moment that having global first is causing UA's losses. There are much more fundamental issues (reliability, quality of soft product top among them) at play...
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:55 pm
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Originally Posted by Bonehead
I think you missed the 22 or so pmCO 772s with 50 BF seats only (which I find to be just fine, by the way).
I can only go by the data I was able to find, so if I missed any, my apologies! But I think the data clearly demonstrates the number of UA planes with GlobalFirst clearly far exceeds the 14 AA 777-300ERs with First.
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:57 pm
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Originally Posted by bhrubin
UA may not measure up in some on-time numbers and its FAs may be reputed to be less friendly than those on other airlines, but when it comes to redeeming for true First, UA offers FAR more options than AA and DL isn't even in the game.
(emphasis added)

So, you seriously think UA's going to retain GF based on how many MP redemptions it gets for it?

You may end up a bit disappointed...

Originally Posted by Bonehead
I think you missed the 22 or so pmCO 772s with 50 BF seats only (which I find to be just fine, by the way).
Plus some pmCO 764s.

Originally Posted by bhrubin
I can only go by the data I was able to find, so if I missed any, my apologies! But I think the data clearly demonstrates the number of UA planes with GlobalFirst clearly far exceeds the 14 AA 777-300ERs with First.
AA has more 77Ws on order (the fleet will eventually be 20), and they haven't pulled 3-class F from their 772 fleet yet. Their 772 J product hasn't been installed yet (it will come along with pulling their 772s).

So this is not exactly a completely fair comparison you've made (the new 772 J is actually an improvement on their 77W J, it would seem). Would you gauge AA's 77W product as superior, equivalent or inferior to UA 777 IPTE?

Oh, and UA's probably going to start retiring 777s and 767s soon (they were the launch customer for the 777) as the A350 comes on line... so by 2016-2018 your comparison may be dated, since it is dependent on whether or not UA will add a 3-cabin F product to the A350/787-9. We already know they haven't on the 787-8...

Last edited by eponymous_coward; Aug 25, 2014 at 4:06 pm
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 3:58 pm
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Originally Posted by exerda
...I don't believe UA offers a competitive global first product vis-a-vis many of the world's airlines...
That certainly seems to be the prevailing wisdom on this board.

Perhaps it's time for a poll of GF potential buyers:

Would you be more likely to buy GF on UA if it were upgraded to resemble [insert your favorite international first-class airline here]'s First Class?

I suppose price points would also be an appropriate question.

Also, for Business-Class purchasers:

Would you be more likely to buy Business Class on UA if GF were upgraded to resemble [insert your favorite international first-class airline here]'s First Class, in hopes of securing an upgrade to GF?
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 4:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Always Flyin
DL gave up international F and is by far the most profitable US carrier with an international presence.

AA is giving up international F on most markets and is the second most profitable US carrier with an international presence. (BTW, you left DFW-HKG off your list of 77W flights.)

UA has the most extensive international F presence of the U.S. airlines on it pmUA planes and is the least profitable.

What could I possibly read into that?
UA also has its headquarters in Chicago and DL has its headquarters in Atlanta...so should we assume that to be the cause for DL being so profitable and UA being so less profitable?

You've stated a fallacy based on faulty causation. Yes, DL has been most profitable, but I doubt anyone believes or you can find the data to support that it's BECAUSE of the DL abandonment of true First. It's incidental!

UA's problems are well-documented--and having true First isn't one of them. UA ALSO has more transpacific business than DL and AA, and its competition there have true First, so it seems likely that may be one reason why UA hasn't dumped international First.

The fact remains that for true international First Class redemptions--which is what I was pointing out in the end--UA is the best bet among the US carriers. As if DL miles weren't already worthless, and as if AA redemptions weren't already harder to come by on AA, UA has perhaps found another reason to stand out among its domestic competition. Frequent flyers--especially business travelers--like to have options for award travel, and UA gives better options for First...not to mention on far more routes on its own metal.

Originally Posted by exerda
I certainly wouldn't read anything into it. Correlation isn't causation, and though I don't believe UA offers a competitive global first product vis-a-vis many of the world's airlines, I also don't believe for a moment that having global first is causing UA's losses. There are much more fundamental issues (reliability, quality of soft product top among them) at play...
Agreed. Of course, when looking at the competition between the US carriers, which is what United must most often do for Wall Street, having more true international First may, indeed, help UA climb back to more consistent profitability. UA doesn't win on many fronts with AA and DL on the numbers, but it does in this department.

As frequent business travelers, my husband and I definitely have stayed with UA partly because of award redemptions available in UA GlobalFirst. Alliance partners are great, but they don't provide as reliable award redemption options as with your own carrier. UA's network is the biggest between AA and DL. UA's First Class is more prevalent than AA's (and DL doesn't even offer it). That likely is a factor for more people than just us. Whether it's enough of a factor for UA to continue maintaining its lead on First Class seats against AA and DL, only time will tell.

But for the time being, UA is best in this area. Everyone loves to slam UA. Here is a manner in which UA is better serving me than AA or DL can.

Last edited by FlyinHawaiian; Aug 25, 2014 at 7:11 pm Reason: Merge
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 4:18 pm
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Originally Posted by bhrubin

But for the time being, UA is best in this area. Everyone loves to slam UA. Here is a manner in which UA is better serving me than AA or DL can.
Are they serving you with paid F seating? Or are they seating you with your visit to F in another manner other than the paid F product?
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 4:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Bonehead
That certainly seems to be the prevailing wisdom on this board.

Perhaps it's time for a poll of GF potential buyers:

Would you be more likely to buy GF on UA if it were upgraded to resemble [insert your favorite international first-class airline here]'s First Class?

I suppose price points would also be an appropriate question.

Also, for Business-Class purchasers:

Would you be more likely to buy Business Class on UA if GF were upgraded to resemble [insert your favorite international first-class airline here]'s First Class, in hopes of securing an upgrade to GF?
UA's hard product was already upgraded starting in 2008ish to be competitive with what other airlines had at the time. We sort of already know the answer to this; it hasn't helped. This could be for a number of reasons (GF coming online at a horrible time for it, merger problems, etc.), but it hasn't objectively helped them in their race with DL and AA.

Now, there's two ways to look at it; one is "well, if they had better champagne and caviar/massages and spas in the lounges/luxury cars to drive you to the plane/better food, it would work better", the other is that "well, DL seems to be doing OK without it".

I might point out that F seats are being pulled from various places around the world, from some pretty well-regarded carriers (QF, EK, LH, and so on)... so it's not like AA and DL don't have company.

Originally Posted by bhrubin
UA's problems are well-documented--and having true First isn't one of them. UA ALSO has more transpacific business than DL and AA, and its competition there have true First, so it seems likely that may be one reason why UA hasn't dumped international First.
UA just completed installing IPTE in what, 2011? There's no reason to tear it out (and incur additional capex) before you're scheduled to. Certainly not when you're supposed to cut $2 billion...

I think that the fact that if they wanted to they COULD add in the Dom and caviar, but they choose not to, is more telling. Not having F on their new longhaul plane orders so far is also telling.

Now, if UA shows us A350s with GF, then I might buy that they aren't slowly consigning it to the dumpster. But why would UA spend money tearing out seats right now?

Last edited by eponymous_coward; Aug 25, 2014 at 4:28 pm
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 4:22 pm
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Originally Posted by bhrubin
Agreed. Of course, when looking at the competition between the US carriers, which is what United must most often do for Wall Street, having more true international First may, indeed, help UA climb back to more consistent profitability. UA doesn't win on many fronts with AA and DL on the numbers, but it does in this department.

As frequent business travelers, my husband and I definitely have stayed with UA partly because of award redemptions available in UA GlobalFirst. Alliance partners are great, but they don't provide as reliable award redemption options as with your own carrier. UA's network is the biggest between AA and DL. UA's First Class is more prevalent than AA's (and DL doesn't even offer it). That likely is a factor for more people than just us. Whether it's enough of a factor for UA to continue maintaining its lead on First Class seats against AA and DL, only time will tell.

But for the time being, UA is best in this area. Everyone loves to slam UA. Here is a manner in which UA is better serving me than AA or DL can.
So if you're happy about UA GF, great. Saying that it's presence might somehow make UA more profitable is just like saying it's presence is the cause of UA financial woes. Either view point lacks any basis. From a factual side:
-AA offers intl F on around 61 planes (47+14). UA offers it on 66 as per your numbers.
-Of course UA has a better network in asia (ironically recent excuse for poor financial performance in quarterly calls), whereas AA has a better network to south America.
-UA does have a better route network than the rest of US legacies, but at least so far that hasn't resulted in much of a profit. (DL did expand quite a bit and their network is looking more impressive everyday personally. Of course there's still the issue of hubs in secondary markets.)

You can decide what aspects of an airline matter to you and make a corresponding choice. Although if your goal is reliable transpac first class award redemptions, you should look at Cathay (easily available with AA miles).

Last edited by okrogius; Aug 25, 2014 at 4:30 pm
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Old Aug 25, 2014, 4:27 pm
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Originally Posted by eponymous_coward
...I might point out that F seats are being pulled from various places around the world, from some pretty well-regarded carriers (QF, EK, LH, and so on)... so it's not like AA and DL don't have company.
While international FC (GF on United) certainly has its ardent supporters, the market appears to be saying that it's a product that isn't paying its way on many routes.
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